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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    But ‘do mortals need gods’ isn’t the moral core of the argument. Instead it is ‘Gods have done more harm than good’ both by themselves and when mortals use gods as an excuse to make war etc. So sure the relationship isn’t clear, but it’s not about that. That is more on the solution side of the argument. Can gods actually be legitimate in the future?
    In the MU, they've saved humanity countless times. So that's not a hard argument to make

  2. #182
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    In the MU, they've saved humanity countless times. So that's not a hard argument to make
    They have also put it in mortal danger many times. Then there are the religious purges and wars. The premise of the story is that Fury has seen the balance of evidence and Gor was right. Like it or don’t the logic is sound.

  3. #183
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    I think Aaron's handling of the Shi'ar gods in his run (who, as far as I know, have never appeared before that arc) about sums up a lot about his view on Gods, Faith, and "worthiness," particularly when the God who puts them in their place isn't the actual God Thor but a mortal using said God's guise and powers.

    It also kind of strikes me that his use of other God's feels more in-line with the "space alien" MCU Asgardians then they do a real Pantheon.

  4. #184
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    But ‘do mortals need gods’ isn’t the moral core of the argument. Instead it is ‘Gods have done more harm than good’ both by themselves and when mortals use gods as an excuse to make war etc. So sure the relationship isn’t clear, but it’s not about that. That is more on the solution side of the argument. Can gods actually be legitimate in the future?
    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    They have also put it in mortal danger many times. Then there are the religious purges and wars. The premise of the story is that Fury has seen the balance of evidence and Gor was right. Like it or don’t the logic is sound.
    If that's the argument then you don't even need to pose the question. No, they can never be legitimate in the future, no matter what they do, those dangers of the past and religious wars of the past will still have happened. Nick and Thor can watch every God do nothing but good for mortals and prevent religious conflict happening in their name every time for a million years and guess what, they still are not mortal, they have an eternity of being flawed creatures both behind them and still ahead of them and anything that has happened in the era of superhero on Midgard won't even have represented a drop in the bucket.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It also kind of strikes me that his use of other God's feels more in-line with the "space alien" MCU Asgardians then they do a real Pantheon.
    ugh MCU is meh.

    at least in the comcis they are mystical at least and have traits of a God like hearing a prayer, recognizing if someone is a God or not, AKA it's not just a word like in MCU. etc.

    MCU is just... meh.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    They have also put it in mortal danger many times. Then there are the religious purges and wars. The premise of the story is that Fury has seen the balance of evidence and Gor was right. Like it or don’t the logic is sound.
    Only if one accepts that the Gods have to shoulder the burden for the entirety of religion.

    The Earth gods haven't had large followings for thousands of years. Fear Itself was kinda bad, but that's mitigated by the fact that Odin sought to prevent it, and cleaned up afterwards. Lets not forget how Odin fought the Dark Gods on principle in Dan Jurgen's run, keeping the Celestials from wiping out humanity, and how many times did they stop Surtur from burning everything?

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Aaron's handling of the Shi'ar gods in his run (who, as far as I know, have never appeared before that arc) about sums up a lot about his view on Gods, Faith, and "worthiness," particularly when the God who puts them in their place isn't the actual God Thor but a mortal using said God's guise and powers.
    Yeah, pretty much. All it took for the Gods to go after Thor was Loki going 'Neener neener, Thor is cooler! lol', and their followers were willing to do anything in their name

  8. #188
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    I try using an analogy to the real world to see if Aaron's story makes sense to me. Let's say the USA(Gods/Asgardians) is prosperous, advanced, a first world nation. Then say Ethiopia(Midgard/Mortals) is less prosperous, less advanced, a third world nation. Now a wealthy american(Thor) goes to Ethiopia frequently to do humanitarian work, also gives vast sums of money to help improve the lives of the Ethiopians(Mortals). After years of good humanitarian works in Ethiopia helping many some snobby, wealthy European(Gorr) who has never done anything to help anyone comes to the American(Thor) and says no Americans are worthy and America is not worthy of Ethiopia. Now how should the American respond to that statement, if it were you how would you react? Would you except the statement and turn into a sad sack, would you stop all the good work you do and become a drunk who wallows in self-pity? Should the American do that. Or would the American and you tell the European(Gorr) to go f**k himself and continue doing your humanitarian work to help the Ethiopians(Mortals) like you have always done. When I relate Arron's unworthy storyline to that analogy it just furthers my opinion that Arron's tale makes little to no sense and one has to disregard decades of past Thor stories to buy into this storyline. The very idea that the word of Gorr or Fury would cause Thor to doubt himself, to question all the countless good he has done, all the sacrifices he has made on behalf of mortals is beyond ludicrous. The Thor before Aaron would never fall so low, he would laugh in Gorr and Fury's face. But this is Aaron's Thor Odinson and that guy is a shell of his fomer self and there is a much better "Thor" wielding the hammer now.
    Last edited by The tall man; 12-07-2017 at 06:38 PM.

  9. #189

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    I'm an atheist and I want fictional gods to be important, colorful and cool. I don't need gods and other superheroes constantly dragged through the mud to empathize with them. I read plenty of stories both fiction and non-fiction about human problems. I don't need Asgardian gods, Kryptonian aliens and other ridiculously powerful characters to be deconstructed and torn down to understand them. This is a problem I find with most modern comic writers. They took what Alan Moore did with "Watchmen" and have been doing it to the entire genre for at least the past decade.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveAtThee View Post
    I'm an atheist and I want fictional gods to be important, colorful and cool. I don't need gods and other superheroes constantly dragged through the mud to empathize with them. I read plenty of stories both fiction and non-fiction about human problems. I don't need Asgardian gods, Kryptonian aliens and other ridiculously powerful characters to be deconstructed and torn down to understand them. This is a problem I find with most modern comic writers. They took what Alan Moore did with "Watchmen" and have been doing it to the entire genre for at least the past decade.
    Oh this I agree with

    JA run, is imo another example of hero destruction like so many before

    I've said it before, the handling of Thor and his worthiness is nothing original at all

    janes a good story and I'm enjoying that part of it

    But I find the mechanism of Thor losing his hammer, the destruction of his relationship with it and his own self esteem to be both ridiculous in its contrite set up to move the focal point of the book and absurd in the notion of Gor's logic, Fury's whisper and regret following it, the very basic idea in and of itself

    For me there is a clear agenda being explored here from a real world view, the rights and wrongs of that view for me are irrelevant and a personal right to have, but I have no question that they have created the overarching narrative here in my opinion

    that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed, I love some parts of it, I just don't see any denying the background to it I feel

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    I try using an analogy to the real world to see if Aaron's story makes sense to me. Let's say the USA(Gods/Asgardians) is prosperous, advanced, a first world nation. Then say Ethiopia(Midgard/Mortals) is less prosperous, less advanced, a third world nation. Now a wealthy american(Thor) goes to Ethiopia frequently to do humanitarian work, also gives vast sums of money to help improve the lives of the Ethiopians(Mortals). After years of good humanitarian works in Ethiopia helping many some snobby, wealthy European(Gorr) who has never done anything to help anyone comes to the American(Thor) and says no Americans are worthy and America is not worthy of Ethiopia. Now how should the American respond to that statement, if it were you how would you react? Would you except the statement and turn into a sad sack, would you stop all the good work you do and become a drunk who wallows in self-pity? Should the American do that. Or would the American and you tell the European(Gorr) to go f**k himself and continue doing your humanitarian work to help the Ethiopians(Mortals) like you have always done. When I relate Arron's unworthy storyline to that analogy it just furthers my opinion that Arron's tale makes little to no sense and one has to disregard decades of past Thor stories to buy into this storyline. The very idea that the word of Gorr or Fury would cause Thor to doubt himself, to question all the countless good he has done, all the sacrifices he has made on behalf of mortals is beyond ludicrous. The Thor before Aaron would never fall so low, he would laugh in Gorr and Fury's face. But this is Aaron's Thor Odinson and that guy is a shell of his fomer self and there is a much better "Thor" wielding the hammer now.
    I completely agree. Thor suddenly doubting all that he is and that he (and other gods) have done was the most glaring part of the story; it is utterly ridiculous. I understand the view that Fury simply "revealed the truth" to him but it still makes no sense to me. It also doesn't correspond with the showing of the gods in the MU; they are typically not even interested in interacting with the mortal sphere (and there is that story in Jurgen's run where the pantheon Skyfathers all test Thor to determine if he is worthy to be a Skyfather. The criteria included and focued on caring for those below them, if I recall correctly). As for histories of religious wars and purges, even if the MU was much the same as our world, religious wars only make up a small fraction of the world's wars throughout history (somewhere between 5-10%) and human deaths are far fewer than the death tolls of modern, secular warfare. How much difference are we talking about? It doesn't add up or it's simply based on fantasy to further the storyline (certainly an option, given the format).

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    They have also put it in mortal danger many times. Then there are the religious purges and wars. The premise of the story is that Fury has seen the balance of evidence and Gor was right. Like it or don’t the logic is sound.
    Logic, as the Doctor once said, "merely enables one to be wrong with authority."

    Gods don't actually carry out purges - humans do. Stalin killed more people than the Crusades, and he was an aetheist.

    The most dangerous people on Earth aren't gods. Doctor Doom is not a god. Thanos is not a god.

    The gods in the MU are just powerful beings. Big deal, the universe is full of them. The Supreme Intelligence, Galactus, Dormammu, Nightmare, Ego the Living Planet... the list goes on and on and on. Juggernaut is Thor's power level, as is Magneto.

    And lo and behold, just like powerful beings everywhere they have their share of dicks.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Gor was Right, but Thor can change the situation. The gods can change. The gods can become worthy but only through their actions. Through the living example of Thor Odinson.
    Firstly, the Asgardians were already pretty worthy. At least, until recently. Odin jumped into hell with Surtur to protect the Nine Realms. It's only recently that he's been written as a complete ass.

    And second, don't you mean through the dead example of Jane Foster, given Thor never managed to lift it while she was still alive?

    I mean come on - a guy you are fighting with tells you something and suddenly you believe it and can't lift your hammer?

    No, it's absurd. If Thor's doubts were really that ingrained he would have been unable to lift Mjolnir well before that. Plus it in no way explains all the extra voodoo the hammer has been up to since Jane picked it up - flying around on it's own, creating dopple-gangers, changing it's own inscription and even talking.
    Last edited by brettc1; 04-18-2018 at 04:22 AM.
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  13. #193
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Logic, as the Doctor once said, "merely enables one to be wrong with authority."

    Gods don't actually carry out purges - humans do. Stalin killed more people than the Crusades, and he was an aetheist.

    The most dangerous people on Earth aren't gods. Doctor Doom is not a god. Thanos is not a god.

    The gods in the MU are just powerful beings. Big deal, the universe is full of them. The Supreme Intelligence, Galactus, Dormammu, Nightmare, Ego the Living Planet... the list goes on and on and on. Juggernaut is Thor's power level, as is Magneto.

    And lo and behold, just like powerful beings everywhere they have their share of dicks.
    None of your other examples were fashioned and formed by the hopes and fears of humanity. The gods were. If they wish to act like gods and maintain any authority in the universe they should perhaps be a little more modest and a little more responsive. When a war rages across their 'creation' then I don't think it is an unrealistic expectation that they should actively help instead of pulling up the drawbridge. And that isn't just a trait from Aaron, that is a pretty consistent response, most obviously exemplified by Fear Itself, but with many examples throughout canon.

    Religion is responsible for inhumanity. That is undeniable. Stalin killed in the name of an ideology that specifically persecuted religions so for me that probably adds its weight to 'better off without them' regardless of my personal opinion. I don't have a problem with his story's exploration of religion, but I won't be drawn into a debate about religion vs. atheism as I am nether religious nor an atheist.

    Aaron is not boiling this down to this though. This is just a question. A story premise. The inhumanity is not being laid at the door of the gods, it is being used to provide some perspective. Gor is literally correct, and if you don't agree it is pretty pointless arguing with a book, that's how the story is being told, take it or leave it. Gor being right doesn't preclude gods that are worthy. Aaron isn't saying religious wars are directly the fault of the gods. More, Aaron is suggesting a solution in legitimacy. Gods that actively respond to the species that created them.



    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Firstly, the Asgardians were already pretty worthy. At least, until recently. Odin jumped into hell with Surtur to protect the Nine Realms. It's only recently that he's been written as a complete ass.
    And Odin wanted to let Midgard burn while he hid in his castle. Odin right now is doing the same again. But again you are stretching Aaron's story. He is categorically not saying Asgardians have never been worthy or even saying that they are all unworthy right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And second, don't you mean through the dead example of Jane Foster, given Thor never managed to lift it while she was still alive?

    I mean come on - a guy you are fighting with tells you something and suddenly you believe it and can't lift your hammer?

    No, it's absurd. If Thor's doubts were really that ingrained he would have been unable to lift Mjolnir well before that. Plus it in no way explains all the extra voodoo the hammer has been up to since Jane picked it up - flying around on it's own, creating dopple-gangers, changing it's own inscription and even talking.
    None of this has any logic to it. This is misrepresenting the story.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    None of your other examples were fashioned and formed by the hopes and fears of humanity. The gods were. If they wish to act like gods and maintain any authority in the universe they should perhaps be a little more modest and a little more responsive. When a war rages across their 'creation' then I don't think it is an unrealistic expectation that they should actively help instead of pulling up the drawbridge. And that isn't just a trait from Aaron, that is a pretty consistent response, most obviously exemplified by Fear Itself, but with many examples throughout canon.

    Religion is responsible for inhumanity. That is undeniable. Stalin killed in the name of an ideology that specifically persecuted religions so for me that probably adds its weight to 'better off without them' regardless of my personal opinion. I don't have a problem with his story's exploration of religion, but I won't be drawn into a debate about religion vs. atheism as I am nether religious nor an atheist.
    First you make a statement, then you say you won't discuss it. Perhaps the god of confusion is stopping you from making up your mind. LOL

    But no, in the Marvel Universe there are plenty of people who do terrible things without the convenient excuse of religion.

    As for the gods - I have read BOTH stories in the MU - the one where people created the gods and the one where gods created people. Neither supports your argument. If the gods created people, then they gave them free will. If people's belief's created the gods, then these deities are simply bigger versions of people and acting the way people think they should.

    Bringing it back to Aaron, he seems to have discarded the idea that human beliefs created the gods because we see Odin existing in a pre-human era. Certainly the gods could solve every problem, but that would require a complete abandonment of free will. Or maybe mortals can be responsible for their own mess.

    As for your bizarre comments about Stalin's victim's being responsible for their own persecution because they chose to believe something, I an only express shock and dismay.



    Aaron is not boiling this down to this though. This is just a question. A story premise. The inhumanity is not being laid at the door of the gods, it is being used to provide some perspective. Gor is literally correct, and if you don't agree it is pretty pointless arguing with a book, that's how the story is being told, take it or leave it. Gor being right doesn't preclude gods that are worthy. Aaron isn't saying religious wars are directly the fault of the gods. More, Aaron is suggesting a solution in legitimacy. Gods that actively respond to the species that created them.
    It is never pointless to speak one's opinion in response to a piece of writing. Again, I am surprised this needs to be pointed out. Did you start this thread only for people to agree with you? And again, I think on examination of the stories it is simply not possible Aaron is keeping to that idea that people created the gods. After all, we see Old King Thor do quite the opposite.



    And Odin wanted to let Midgard burn while he hid in his castle. Odin right now is doing the same again. But again you are stretching Aaron's story. He is categorically not saying Asgardians have never been worthy or even saying that they are all unworthy right now.
    Thank you for making my point about how Odin has been drastically re-written for the purposes of the story. Many of Odin's actions since his return are simply at total odds with his past appearances.


    None of this has any logic to it. This is misrepresenting the story.
    It is citing the story. Unless you are going to say none of these things ever happened?
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

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  15. #195
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Bringing it back to Aaron, he seems to have discarded the idea that human beliefs created the gods because we see Odin existing in a pre-human era. Certainly the gods could solve every problem, but that would require a complete abandonment of free will. Or maybe mortals can be responsible for their own mess.
    Not true. That is the beginning of the human era in the MU.

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