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  1. #481
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Luke: The ancient Jedi texts!

    Yoda: Read them then, you have.

    Luke: Well, I...

    Yoda: Page-turners, they were not.

    So DID Luke read those Jedi texts? Did he fully comprehend their content? Were the texts where he learned the ability to create selectively tangible Force Astral Projections across the Galaxy?

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    I figure he never read them. He'd closed himself off from the Force. He wasno longer interested in that kind of thing. and he probably considered himself unworthy.

    I reckon he learned how to Force-project from seeing Kylo and Rey doing it earlier in the movie.
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  2. #482
    Mighty Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    ^Technically it was Snoke creating the connection.
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  3. #483
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    Yeah... Though the film only makes Snoke even more of a frustrating anti-climax since that kind of trick is apparently fatal, as described by Kylo and proven by Luke.

    Luke *does* check in on Leia via long range stuff, and connects with her, he just doesn't project himself.
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  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Yeah... Though the film only makes Snoke even more of a frustrating anti-climax since that kind of trick is apparently fatal, as described by Kylo and proven by Luke.

    Luke *does* check in on Leia via long range stuff, and connects with her, he just doesn't project himself.
    I would suppose that a few brief moments of contact is a lot less fatal than a nearly full materialisation, that is supposed to be real enough to fool sensors, with some semi- combat duty added in.
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  5. #485
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Yeah... Though the film only makes Snoke even more of a frustrating anti-climax since that kind of trick is apparently fatal, as described by Kylo and proven by Luke.

    Luke *does* check in on Leia via long range stuff, and connects with her, he just doesn't project himself.
    I could be wrong, but I'm also under the impression that Leia was able to recover relatively quickly from her ordeal of being exposed to the void of space because Luke transmitted some kind of "Force Heal" to her when he reached to her through the Force from Ahch-To.

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  6. #486
    Astonishing Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    What a POS movie

    I walked out after 1 hour.

    And its all on the awful screenplay. Im so angry now, and im not a star wars guy.

    I remember when only the best made movies and write screenplays.

    Not this mediocrity

    Not just story but the poor actors, with nothing remotely interesting to say or do.

    Hamill was right.

  7. #487

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    I’m surprised at how much I disliked it. Half way through the movie I realized that I just didn’t care about any of the new characters outside of Kylo Ren, the script was also surprisingly weak with plot holes galore, unnecessary side-quests and awful humor.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    What a POS movie

    I walked out after 1 hour.

    And its all on the awful screenplay. Im so angry now, and im not a star wars guy.

    I remember when only the best made movies and write screenplays.

    Not this mediocrity

    Not just story but the poor actors, with nothing remotely interesting to say or do.

    Hamill was right.
    It's worse than Attack of the clones or The Clone wars two-part pilot that made its way to theaters? It's worse than the Holiday special that the actors in it deny or put down whenever brought up?

    The Room, Attack of the Clones, Queen Kong, Rubber, Cat Woman, The Cell, Martyrs (the American remake), The Emoji movie, Justice League, Jurassic Park 3, Green Lantern, Ghost in the Shell (the American one), Kite, etc..

    But only now there is a drop in quality in movies?
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  9. #489
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I need to wait and re-evaluate this thing.
    I can understand that. I mean, I had a primarily positive reception to the movie, but it's such an emotional rollercoaster and full of twists and turns (the trailer wasn't lying when they used Luke's line that it wasn't going to end the way we thought) to kind of get my thoughts in order.

    A few points I'd like to specifically reply/play devil's advocate for:

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    But I really find most of Finn, Rose, Poe, and DJ's plot to be a Trapped By Mountain Lions misstep.
    I honestly was never bothered by this (I was extremely invested in the characters, though, and I tend to be forgiving when that's the case). I have heard an interesting defense for it online. I like this YouTuber's breakdown of it here, but the gist is that the subplot is the catalyst for Finn's character development from being solely focused on himself and the circle of people he cared for (chiefly Rey) to being an actual member of the Resistance cause and what it stood for. (The video also argues that JD's role is to show why the "I only take care of my own" worldview is wrong.) I'd also argue that it gives Finn and Rose a chance to bond, which is extremely important to the decisions that the latter makes in the climax (unlike other people, I didn't have a problem with that decision or her subsequent confession, for what it's worth). It also fed into Poe's story arc of needing to learn to look at the bigger picture and not just make the snap decision for the here and now.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    There's also something frustrating about the logistics of the film's military: The Raddus can get far enough away from the FO fleet to protect itself from turbo lasers and fighters, but can't pull away even further, while the FO has no ship capable of catching up to support the fighters?
    I took it that we were supposed to assume that the fleet was barely able to keep out of range (and running out of gas doing so) and that the First Order wasn't too worried about them getting away (kind of a "why waste the effort on an inevitable outcome?" thing). However, I will concede that this was written more for good drama than realism.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    And I feel like disputing the merits of keeping Rey's parentage a secret for this long if our answer was always Jakku-trash...
    As I understand it, there was no real set answer before Last Jedi (not counting the clues in the TFA novelizations that are now essentially decanonized by the new movie). Rian Johnson did have a reason behind the answer he created, according to this article:

    ...the reveal was going to have to answer the following question [who are Rey's parents?] in a way that best serviced Rey’s arc moving forward: “What’s going to make life hardest on her?” Johnson says that when Luke learns Darth Vader is his father in “The Empire Strikes Back” it’s “the hardest thing the character could possibly hear in that moment.” For Rey, the hardest thing would be hearing she’s not special at all.
    “And same thing with Rey and her parentage,” Johnson said. “The easy thing would be, ‘Yes, your parents are so and so and here’s your place in the world. There you go.’ The hardest thing she could hear would be […] ‘No, you’re not going to get the answer. This is not going to define you. You’re going to have to find your own place in this world. Kylo is going to use that even as leverage to try and make you feel insecure, and you’re going to have to stand on your own two feet.’”
    It was somewhat anticlimactic (and it could be retconned into Kylo being wrong or lying to manipulate her if so wished -- he was using the information to try and talk her into joining him by claim that Rey didn't matter to anyone else, which is not the case, as Finn and BB-8 could attest to), but I do like the reasoning behind it (and how it mirrors's Kylo's story arc). I was expecting that Rey would turn out to be the kid of new characters over someone like Luke, so I wasn't counting on a different reveal (even if I kinda wish that the novelizations had proven accurate on this point).

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    ...or of her power continuing to be hyped up and made equal to Ren's without some commentary...
    To be totally honest, I never found Rey to be extremely overpowered in the first place. Just about everything we see her do is generally the kind of stuff that we've seen done by young, untrained Force newbies or are very early lessons, to the point that she never really seemed that much above baseline normal to me. To get specific, the Ahsoka novel does specifically mention that some Force-users have a specific skill that they can inherently perform without training (Ahsoka meets a child with a Force danger sense). I wonder if Rey has that in regards to telekinesis; she seems to use it without a lot of trouble and the Star Wars Made Easy reference book specifically mentioned that she was using it untrained, although they didn't connect the dots to Ahsoka.

    At the end of the day, I guess I was content to accept that she had above average talent in this regard (there are always people like that in real life skills and fields) and leave it at that.

    As noted above, I really liked the movie. The only thing I can think of right now I wish had been handled much differently was Rey's shift from thinking that Kylo was a total monster to someone who could repent came a bit out of nowhere. I like the idea (and the character's interactions were much more interesting). I just wish that there was more connective tissue to bridge and explain her change of perspective.
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  10. #490
    Rebel that Rebels BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    I'd like to see a list of plot holes since that is a criticism.

    Based on past experience, whenever I talk to someone about plot holes in a movie they can't name one.

    Or like the lame article on the main site, they list stuff that was CLEARLY ANSWERED IN THE FILM but they just didn't pay attention. Or they're nitpicky stuff based on things they don't like.

    And I'm not saying there's no plot holes ... sooo ...
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 01-05-2018 at 11:19 AM.
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  11. #491
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    What a POS movie

    I walked out after 1 hour.

    And its all on the awful screenplay. Im so angry now, and im not a star wars guy.

    I remember when only the best made movies and write screenplays.

    Not this mediocrity

    Not just story but the poor actors, with nothing remotely interesting to say or do.

    Hamill was right.
    No you didn't. You watched the whole thing.
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  12. #492
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I'd like to see a list of plot holes since that is a criticism.

    Based on past experience, whenever I talk to someone about plot holes in a movie they can't name one.

    Or like the lame article on the main site, they list stuff that was CLEARLY ANSWERED IN THE FILM but they just didn't pay attention. Or they're nitpicky stuff based on things they don't like.

    And I'm not saying there's no plot holes ... sooo ...
    Yeah. Unless it's something crazy egregious like a dead character inexplicably returning to life in the next frame, I don't really mind most plot holes too much. I figure that a story without plot holes will probably be pretty sterile and boring, and I'd rather the storytellers focus their energy on telling the story than on plugging plot holes.

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  13. #493
    Fantastic Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I'd like to see a list of plot holes since that is a criticism.

    Based on past experience, whenever I talk to someone about plot holes in a movie they can't name one.
    There are many, many lists out there of the plot holes in TLJ. Here are my issues:

    My biggest issue is how the films fit together. TFA ends with the First Order knowing the location of the Resistance base, but falling back. Snoke tells Hux to bring Kylo Ren to him so he can complete his training. At the Resistance base, Rey and Leia have time to change clothing and Threepio has time to have his red arm replaced.

    A short time later (Rey is still standing holding the lightsaber out to Luke), the Resistance base is under attack. Why didn't they leave before? Why are Hux and Kylo there? Did Snoke complete Kylo's training? The script for TLJ was written before rewrites to TFA and it feels like it. The Forceback was filmed in a reshoot/added shot after the TLJ script was written and never were these movies made to actually fit together.

    The slow speed chase scene - Holdo's plan was stupid - why would the First Order not fire on the transports? Assuming they would ignore the transports is moronic. The First Order is bored waiting for something to happen. Why didn't the First Order bring in smaller ships to pursue to Resistance ship? Why didn't the Resistance ship light speed to different areas. Why didn't Poe tell Holdo the information he had about how the light speed tracking worked. It's all plot induced stupidity.

    Canto - how did they even contact Maz? Han is the one who knows her. How could Rose & Finn have gotten to Canto Bight and back (considering how far it was) in that amount of time. And if they had that amount of time, why couldn't they have come up with another idea?

    Yoda - If Yoda can physically touch objects and cause fires, why hasn't he done more to help? Why hasn't he talked to Luke before?

    Finn & Rose on the Supremacy - why didn't they have something covering their faces since they're the only people of color on the entire ship. It's obvious they don't belong there. Why not put them in some sort of helmets?

    Crait - How did Finn & Rose get back to the Rebel base after being in no man's land in clear firing range of all of the First Order troops? How did Rey get back to the Falcon? Why did Rey go back to the Falcon if she did have Snoke's ship since she could have approached the First Order troops and destroyed them before they knew it wasn't one of their own.

    If Leia can use the Force to fly through space, why couldn't she move the boulders out of the way?

    The problems with plot induced stupidity of Hux and Kylo makes it difficult to see the First Order being an actual threat. If the next film picks up 5 years later, it should be 4 years and 6 months after the First Order was finished because both of them are incompetent as leaders and unable to lead military forces.

  14. #494
    Rebel that Rebels BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    There are many, many lists out there of the plot holes in TLJ.

    There are many, many lists out there of the plot holes in TLJ.
    Sure! And every one I've encountered falls into the CLEARLY ANSWERED IN THE FILM but they just didn't pay attention or they're nitpicky stuff based on things they don't like.

    My biggest issue is how the films fit together. TFA ends with the First Order knowing the location of the Resistance base, but falling back. Snoke tells Hux to bring Kylo Ren to him so he can complete his training. At the Resistance base, Rey and Leia have time to change clothing and Threepio has time to have his red arm replaced.

    A short time later (Rey is still standing holding the lightsaber out to Luke), the Resistance base is under attack. Why didn't they leave before? Why are Hux and Kylo there? Did Snoke complete Kylo's training?
    - FO falls back, regroups, and then attacks. Pretty standard movie strategy.
    - We see Kylo talk to Snoke and get rebuked (which is later a ploy to lure Rey that backfires on Snoke).
    - 3PO has his gold arm at the end of TFA. Droids have had a pretty quick repair record in ALL the Star Wars films to date, BTW.
    - Quick changes are a part of movies. When you see someone crossing their fingers behind their back in a movie, it means they're lying! I think people forget about movie magic sometimes.
    - TIMELINE: I think part of the problem some people have different definitions of what Johnson meant when he said this movies takes place "right after" TFA. Some took it as immediately, others as relatively. At the end of TFA there's been at least enough time for Rey to get to Ach-to. So my brain processes that as hours, maybe a day? They might not even be happening at the same time! I agree it is not very clear. Star Wars as a series has always been unclear on time passages in the movies. Empire being the main one with the training of Luke. How long was that? Unclear ...

    I can give you this one as a plot hole even though it's more about narrative structure being unclear/inconsistent.

    The script for TLJ was written before rewrites to TFA and it feels like it. The Forceback was filmed in a reshoot/added shot after the TLJ script was written and never were these movies made to actually fit together.
    -That's not true! Johnson asked for a change in VII and got it (R2 with Rey instead of BB-8 at the end). Johnson also wanted more Academy footage shot for use in VIII. JJ asked for a scene to be filmed with Finn and Rose for IX, and some b roll of VIII locations for what I assume is another flashback. It sounds like they're working together more than people want to believe.

    Not a plot hole until we see if IX address this or not. It is the middle film ...

    The slow speed chase scene - Holdo's plan was stupid - why would the First Order not fire on the transports? Assuming they would ignore the transports is moronic. The First Order is bored waiting for something to happen. Why didn't the First Order bring in smaller ships to pursue to Resistance ship? Why didn't the Resistance ship light speed to different areas. Why didn't Poe tell Holdo the information he had about how the light speed tracking worked. It's all plot induced stupidity.
    - Transports were cloaked from active scanning. "We should be cloaked from their scopes and active scans."
    - Hux said they can't support the fighters at that distance, so they had to pull back.
    - Hyperspace burns massive fuel. They'd have even less fuel if they jumped. Finn made several reference to this as did Rose, Poe, Holdo ... "We jump to hyperspace and when we exit, they'd just show up 30 seconds later and we'd have burned up a massive amount of fuel."
    - Holdo doesn't trust Poe because of the Bombadier stunt, he got demoted (he went down 2 rungs of leadership BTW, not 1), and in turn Poe doesn't trust Holdo because she won't tell him the plan, she's not Leia, and she's new. Petty reasons but not PIS. Would you want to tell Maverick the plan?

    I do however agree that a line or 2 of dialog from either address the mistrust was needed. Implying things is not enough for some people.

    But not a plot hole as this info is in the movie!

    Canto - how did they even contact Maz? Han is the one who knows her. How could Rose & Finn have gotten to Canto Bight and back (considering how far it was) in that amount of time. And if they had that amount of time, why couldn't they have come up with another idea?
    - They used a holo transmitter obviously. Been used a lot in all the Star Wars movies.
    - It was stated in TFA that Maz is a friend of Leia and the Resistance.
    - Distance created a time crunch, Poe said so. "Get in, get out." Finn doesn't have the best planning track record in TFA, either. Rose was just coming to grips that the people she respected as heroes weren't all they were crack up to be (a theme of the movie, BTW).
    - Another idea under a time crunch (Rose is constantly reminding Finn of the fleet's fuel)!? From bad planning Finn and disenfranchised Rose? HAHAHA! Probably would've been just as bad or worse than there current plan.

    Not a plot hole! Star Wars has always been focused more on iconography and themes that inform the plot. Failure and disenfranchisement with your teacher/leader/boss/mentor/hero etc. being the main two of this film!

    Snoke/Klyo, Luke/Rey, Poe/Leia, Finn/Rose and so on all experience both these themes.

    Yoda - If Yoda can physically touch objects and cause fires, why hasn't he done more to help? Why hasn't he talked to Luke before?
    - Obviously there are limits to Force Ghosts and Luke has been the only one to see any of the Ghosts so far (Leia looks past them in ROTJ) BUT ... it appears Yoda at least is learning more.
    - He hasn't? How do you know that? He might have ... we don't know yet. I assume it takes a lot of energy to project since the effort kills Luke and Kylo reference projection will kill during their scenes. Maybe Yoda has to store up some energy.
    - The Force has yet to have had clearly defined limits.

    Sounds nitpicky, not plot holey.

    Finn & Rose on the Supremacy - why didn't they have something covering their faces since they're the only people of color on the entire ship. It's obvious they don't belong there. Why not put them in some sort of helmets?
    - DJ covered up BB-8, clearly he thought about it.
    - Finn was an ex FO member. There's lots of women on the ship. I think they're equal-opportunity subjugates.
    - When has Finn planned in the last 2 movies!? Rose is a grease monkey who got giddy riding the fabiers during an escape. They strike you has Han Solo and Leia in terms of planning? I mean they decided it was a good idea to bring along a guy from the jail ... judgment discernment, they have not.

    Sounds nitpicky, not plot holey. In fact, it's consistent characterization. And thematically constructed!

    Crait - How did Finn & Rose get back to the Rebel base after being in no man's land in clear firing range of all of the First Order troops? How did Rey get back to the Falcon? Why did Rey go back to the Falcon if she did have Snoke's ship since she could have approached the First Order troops and destroyed them before they knew it wasn't one of their own.
    - Finn and co stole the FO shuttle in the docking bay that the tried to run to before Phasma showed up.
    - Leia put out a distress call to "anybody that was listening" using her "personal code" to try to get help. BB-8, Finn, Chewie, Rey, the First Order and Rose showed after that scene. Everyone knew they were there.
    - Rey/Chewie were responding to the cloaked bioray beacon.
    - Also, DJ bartered the Crait plan info to go free. Remember that? Poe/Rose/Finn talked about on a comm in front of DJ when he was slicing his way into the control room. They used BB-8's comm he threw to Finn? They also talk to DJ about the plan hence why they were on the ship in the first place.
    - Kylo said Rey escaped on Snoke's shuttle to Hux. How would that surprise anybody again? The recently anointed Supreme Leader and the General of the FO knew what ship Rey was on. Also, you want a docking sequence between the Falcon and Rey on Snoke's ship? Really? During a nearly 3 hour movie?
    - Rey told Chewie not to jump far and wait for her signal to "pick them up." She was hopeful she was bringing Ben back with her ... but that was the plan! Chewie got the signal and clearly picked her up.

    Not a plot hole!

    If Leia can use the Force to fly through space, why couldn't she move the boulders out of the way?
    - She Force pulled herself back to the Home One. Sorry to be nitpicky on that.
    - Leia was behind everyone else AND they show Rey had landed at the same time they all stood there wondering what to do ... so Rey was already movie the rocks.

    I'm sorry to sound a bit like I'm attacking you (trust me, I'm not) but I'm beginning to wonder if you were paying attention during the movie? This last one seems a really obvious to me given what was going on during the movie at the time. Rey was already there ready to move the rocks when the despair started.
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 01-05-2018 at 01:19 PM.
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  15. #495
    Rebel that Rebels BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    PART 2 ...

    The problems with plot induced stupidity of Hux and Kylo makes it difficult to see the First Order being an actual threat. If the next film picks up 5 years later, it should be 4 years and 6 months after the First Order was finished because both of them are incompetent as leaders and unable to lead military forces.
    - Hux did suffer from incompetent commanding as he was more into making Kylo look bad in TFA and TLJ. Hux also wanted to impress the Supreme Leader. Given the theme of the film, I was expecting Kylo to off Hux when I first watched the film in the Throne Room. Doubly so when they were in Kylo's shuttle. Missed opportunity to setup the Knights of Ren (if they're alive) as commanders of the whatever they call the FO now, IMHO. PIS? Eh ... his character was all about making Klyo look bad (they argued about clones and other things in TFA when Finn defected) and making his mentor Snoke love him more than Ren (both shown in TFA and TLJ). He gave that "Haha! You're in trouble with dad!" smile to Kylo when he told Snoke he had the Resistance "on a string" and Kylo was coming in to get the "bested by a GIRL who never held a lightsaber" lecture. Hux's downfalls in the films so far have been his hubris. Another theme of the movie!

    Plot hole or PIS? Eh ... I don't think so. It depends on if Hux suddenly heels to Kylo in IX for me. I can see your argument, I'm just comfortable with what's presented to us in the films so far as Hux making mistakes because the "bug in the system" threw of his game and his daddy issues with Snoke being character traits. Hux did blow up the New Republic, so he's not that bad right?

    Anyway, that's my 2 cents. And please don't take it as I'm attacking you, I am not.
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