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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Damn, nice catch. Going to have to concede that one. Thanks for sharing CM.




    Eh, I see what you mean.

    So, because we have BRB, who does have a planet busting feat, but Thor apparently does not....do we say the time Bill has lost to Thor (say Blood and Thunder) is PIS given Bill has the legit planet busting feat?



    Fair enough.
    That's one perspective, that Bill is stronger. It's worth noting that Blood and Thunder specifically involves a Bloodlusted, powered up Thor fighting a reluctant Bill. Despite that, Bill gains the upper hand at least once in the story, knocking Thor on his back and then pausing to ask Thor to yield. Which gives Thor an opening to lay into Bill.

    What I'm saying is it isn't a clean win.

    Another perspective is the Stormbreaker series features Bill taking out that celestial body, and then an earth like planet getting destroyed later. The latter is treated as a much bigger deal. Bigger boom, bigger splash page, more damage to those involved. So one could argue the scan you posted probably wasn't as big a planet.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    To expand a little bit. Thor has never planet busted, to my knowledge. He's probably got some narrative stuff saying he could do it. But by that standard, post crisis Superman had lots of junk like that, and we don't call him a planet buster. Post crisis Krytponians destroyed moons on a few occasions, though, and Thor has held a moon breaking apart together. So that's about the level I see them operating at.

    There's two ways of viewing Bill, IMO. One is that Bill probably destroyed something closer to a moon there, and is about equal to Thor in power. This jives with Bill's performance against the like earth like planet later in that same story, along with how he handled stuff in Godhunter, the follow up mini. There he relied upon various planet busting weapons of mass destruction to take out planets instead of just smashing them himself. He also got demolished by a true planet buster, the Silver Surfer.

    The other perspective is that Bill's Cyborg form was already Thor level for brickness, and then he got a Thor power upgrade on top of that. So you can argue he's got more physical oomph than Thor based on that celestial body smash. And you can argue in God hunter, Bill's role was to distract the Heralds so Skuttlebutt could set up the WMDs. Plus Surfer is way above a "mere" planet buster so there's no shame in losing to him.

    Which ever view you take, I wouldn't use Bill's performance to argue Thor is a planet buster.

    I'll also note that Bill being utilized less often makes him much more consistently portrayed. He hasn't beat up the Surfer, but he also hasn't gotten beaten up by Wolverine.

  3. #33
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    To expand a little bit. Thor has never planet busted, to my knowledge. He's probably got some narrative stuff saying he could do it. But by that standard, post crisis Superman had lots of junk like that, and we don't call him a planet buster. Post crisis Krytponians destroyed moons on a few occasions, though, and Thor has held a moon breaking apart together. So that's about the level I see them operating at.
    Agreed.

    There's two ways of viewing Bill, IMO. One is that Bill probably destroyed something closer to a moon there, and is about equal to Thor in power. This jives with Bill's performance against the like earth like planet later in that same story, along with how he handled stuff in Godhunter, the follow up mini. There he relied upon various planet busting weapons of mass destruction to take out planets instead of just smashing them himself. He also got demolished by a true planet buster, the Silver Surfer.
    The funny thing about his performance against the Surfer is that this was "post Annihilation Silver Surfer", supposedly powered up. But that isn't anything we haven't seen the Surfer do prior to that.

    The other perspective is that Bill's Cyborg form was already Thor level for brickness, and then he got a Thor power upgrade on top of that. So you can argue he's got more physical oomph than Thor based on that celestial body smash. And you can argue in God hunter, Bill's role was to distract the Heralds so Skuttlebutt could set up the WMDs. Plus Surfer is way above a "mere" planet buster so there's no shame in losing to him.
    Nice explanation. I think I'm more inclined to agree with this latter explanation although both make sense.

    Which ever view you take, I wouldn't use Bill's performance to argue Thor is a planet buster.

    I'll also note that Bill being utilized less often makes him much more consistently portrayed. He hasn't beat up the Surfer, but he also hasn't gotten beaten up by Wolverine.
    Right. Makes it easier to detect any SMvFL moments. So, just so I'm clear, are we more inclined to believe Bill is stronger because of his performance against Thor (Thor 338) coupled with his subsequent power up with stormbreaker? This would mean Bill's performance against Thor (outside of Blood and Thunder of course) would be more PIS than anything else. IIRC, Bill has fought Thor I think 3 times, losing 2 out of three.

    EDIT: do we see Bill as being closer to a legitimate planet buster while Thor without WsM is closer to being moon buster level?

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Agreed.



    The funny thing about his performance against the Surfer is that this was "post Annihilation Silver Surfer", supposedly powered up. But that isn't anything we haven't seen the Surfer do prior to that.



    Nice explanation. I think I'm more inclined to agree with this latter explanation although both make sense.



    Right. Makes it easier to detect any SMvFL moments. So, just so I'm clear, are we more inclined to believe Bill is stronger because of his performance against Thor (Thor 338) coupled with his subsequent power up with stormbreaker? This would mean Bill's performance against Thor (outside of Blood and Thunder of course) would be more PIS than anything else. IIRC, Bill has fought Thor I think 3 times, losing 2 out of three.

    EDIT: do we see Bill as being closer to a legitimate planet buster while Thor without WsM is closer to being moon buster level?
    I can name 4 fights between Bill and Thor.

    -- Bill's first appearance. Bill wins by out lasting Thor's 60 second revert back to human thing.

    --Rematch for Mjolnir. Bill wins by recovering first from a double KO. But the arena they fought in was super hot, which provides some advantages to Bill.

    --Blood and Thunder. I actually think Thor and Bill fought more than once here, but it's irrelevant for reasons already discussed.

    --Unworthy Thor. Once again, Thor goes Warrior Madness and takes out a Bill who doesn't want to fight.

    I don't think either has actually beaten the other without an asterisk.

    Honestly, I'd probably split the difference and call Bill north of a moonbuster but south of a planet buster. Works to explain Bill still being weaker than Gladiator, who can take out a planet in 3 punches. (I think Bill could take out a planet too, but it would take a lot longer.)

  5. #35
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    I can name 4 fights between Bill and Thor.

    -- Bill's first appearance. Bill wins by out lasting Thor's 60 second revert back to human thing.

    --Rematch for Mjolnir. Bill wins by recovering first from a double KO. But the arena they fought in was super hot, which provides some advantages to Bill.

    --Blood and Thunder. I actually think Thor and Bill fought more than once here, but it's irrelevant for reasons already discussed.

    --Unworthy Thor. Once again, Thor goes Warrior Madness and takes out a Bill who doesn't want to fight.

    I don't think either has actually beaten the other without an asterisk.

    Honestly, I'd probably split the difference and call Bill north of a moonbuster but south of a planet buster. Works to explain Bill still being weaker than Gladiator, who can take out a planet in 3 punches. (I think Bill could take out a planet too, but it would take a lot longer.)
    Works for me.

    Gonna have to check out that issue of Thor. Thx for the explanations.

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