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  1. #76
    Long Live The Phantom Aioros22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    Do we know HIVE Queen was even referring to Jason knowing about what Bizarro was doing? Why would that get a big reaction from her? I read it as Jason knowing while trying to find Gunn and the telepathic bit as a red herring. Bizarro mistakes it for something referring to him but it's really something else.
    We don`t know so it is very possible it overplays into something later but we are certainly supposed to believe that is about Bizarro to make sense with the action in the next panel - indicating that Biz too believed it was about him. Bizarro has been dealing with anything that can give suspitions to Jason in low profile, both regarding his own mental state and Jason`s.

    This is what happens when the child plays parent without the maturity and experience, genious or otherwise. I do believe Jason already knows more than he lets on. He was trained to investigate things, those sort of muscles don`t automatially turn off just because one wants to. He is suspicious about something but his blindness regarding Bizarro (like a parent regarding their child) is making sure he`s looking oblivious to what is actually there.

    Artemis has been more sure about something not being right from the start because she doesn`t have the same blindfold despite equally loving Bizarro but she lacks the deductive skill to draw connections. She`s more upfront about what she doesn`t like but doesn`t have the key to figure out what is behind the door.
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  2. #77
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    You guys aren't seeing my issue with this development (and that in fact is a general issue I've had with the entire plot) is that the addition is completely superfluos and makes the plot developments needlessly contrived. Letting the audience know that Jason has doubts about Bizarro's behavior didn't need of a mind reading enemy and even less one so powerful like Queen Bee is.
    Regarding the bolded I don't think that's the reason Queen Bee is there precisely because I think Lobdell is better than that. I believe that Lobdell is merely seeding another plot point here and I think that whatever it was Queen Bee saw had absolutely nothing to do with Bizarro's behavior. Her reaction to whatever it was is just too shocked for it to be anything regarding Bizarro IMHO. Personally, I think what she saw was something of a more personal nature for Jason, possibly dealing with his death and resurrection. That seems to fit the expression of shock she had better than something to do with Bizarro. She also said it was something he buried in his subconcious and that it was something he knows but can't accept, which again fits the idea that it might have something to do with his death and resurrection which he has oftentimes claimed he has no memory of far more than it does Bizzaro's rather odd behavior.

    I do think we are meant to think that it is about Bizarro because just when she was going to say something more he comes flying through the wall at her ending the discussion but I believe this to be a red herring meant to distract the reader into thinking that.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 01-12-2018 at 04:48 PM.
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  3. #78
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    Bizarro has been shown to leap into action at the smallest hint that he'll be discovered. When Luke was about to reveal he taunted the Det. team into a fight he cut him off. We've seen his thoughts on needing to help Jason's mission and seeing Jason's problems as his own. When HIVE Queen makes the mere hint that Jason knows something Bizarro pounces to prevent what he believes would be his discovery.

    Artemis seems to be more wary of the sudden intelligence shift and the way Bizarro is behaving. She has no actual proof just a strong gut feeling.

    The scene with Jason looking for Gunn really makes me believe he knows and is piecing it all together. I've seen others say it but the letter is a big clue. "Compatriots" is a term Bizarro has been using and seems less Gunn like. Jason was suspicious the moment he saw the newspapers and knew that didn't fit in with her image. A con artist wouldn't be so sloppy.

    I really do believe the telepathic bit was a mislead that wasn't actually about Bizarro.
    Last edited by EMarie; 01-12-2018 at 01:57 PM.

  4. #79
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    Yup, pretty convinced it wasn`t about Bizarro, that`s just what we are supposed to think right now and Bizarro as well. I don`t think it`s by chance at all that the latest two issues have ended with Bizarro taking a tip in the pool of concentrated Kriptonite. He`s visually emulating Jason.

    Don`t be too surprised if the plot ends up touching what being reborn from the Lazarus Pit actually meant and how it changed him. That`s likely going to be the parallel.
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  5. #80
    Long Live The Phantom Aioros22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    Artemis seems to be more wary of the sudden intelligence shift and the way Bizarro is behaving. She has no actual proof just a strong gut feeling.

    The scene with Jason looking for Gunn really makes me believe he knows and is piecing it all together. I've seen others say it but the letter is a big clue. "Compatriots" is a term Bizarro has been using and seems less Gunn like. Jason was suspicious the moment he saw the newspapers and knew that didn't fit in with her image. A con artist wouldn't be so sloppy.
    I`m actually going to re-read the whole arc from the start this weekend and I`m betting to see hints of Jason already suspecting Bizarro is off.

    He`s porpusely putting on pink colored shades but that is going to go before it hits him in the face.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    I`m actually going to re-read the whole arc from the start this weekend and I`m betting to see hints of Jason already suspecting Bizarro is off.

    He`s porpusely putting on pink colored shades but that is going to go before it hits him in the face.
    From what I remember we don't get much. Jason defends Bizarro against others for most of it but we get a few tiny hints. He shows uncertainty when Bizarro is able to take them into the bat cave and realizes Superman wouldn't be thrilled when they go into the fortress of solitude. When Luke brings up Bizarro taunting them a confused Jason almost gets Luke to explain the whole thing before Bizarro chimes in. I don't remember anything else as they were distracted by the SS mission for two issues. Jason could have had a bad feeling about it previously and is only able to piece it all together now.

    Does he even know Lex used Kryptonite to heal Bizarro?

  7. #82
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    From what I remember we don't get much. Jason defends Bizarro against others for most of it but we get a few tiny hints. He shows uncertainty when Bizarro is able to take them into the bat cave and realizes Superman wouldn't be thrilled when they go into the fortress of solitude. When Luke brings up Bizarro taunting them a confused Jason almost gets Luke to explain the whole thing before Bizarro chimes in. I don't remember anything else as they were distracted by the SS mission for two issues. Jason could have had a bad feeling about it previously and is only able to piece it all together now.

    Does he even know Lex used Kryptonite to heal Bizarro?
    I don't believe that he is aware of that or at least it hasn't ever been mentioned.
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  8. #83
    Spectacular Member magpieM's Avatar
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    I don't think the Queen Bee's shocking reaction is about Jason's repressing suspicion about Bizarro at all.

    I'm not very familiar with the style of the artist of this issue, but I think I haven't seen any panel showing a 'dark shadow' behind a certain character since RHATO rebirth started, no matter it's Soy's art or others. (Do correct me if I missed any!) When Jason was pointing the gun at her, there was a bigger, pure black shadow behind him, with exactly the same silhouette like himself. And his (dialog/thought) balloons were circled by some extra red outlines. There are some weird/scary moments in this issue, and I got my first one right there. It feels like there is another 'self' of him that finally got a chance to reveal its existence in Queen Bee's eyes at the moment, with a different voice.

    I also think that this 'shadow' and voice could very possibly deform into something monstrous that made her completely terrified before Bizarro interfered.
    Last edited by magpieM; 01-14-2018 at 12:17 AM.

  9. #84
    Spectacular Member magpieM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    The issue has a terrible problem with the pacing. It feels like Lobdell had to cram in one issue the contents of two, leading to an overstuffed story that tries to tackle many plot points and fails to develop them properly. While is true the issue is building up to other stories, Lobdell has proved himself to be skilled himself to build future stories while keeping smaller arcs self contained. And in that aspect Bizarro Reborn failed completely. The plots set by the arc had either poor resolutions or ended up to be completely pointless (ie DC team showing up), this also leads to the problem that Bizarro's plan depends on too many variables happening exactly like he wanted to work and that makes needlessly contrived the whole thing. Why the need to involve the SS? How was Bizarro sure Waller wouldn't stab them in the back? What if Batwoman didn't take them to Waller? and so on.

    HIVE was a completely pointless addition to an already stuffed plotline that didn't offered much and took away precious space that Lobdell could've used to develop his other ideas like the thing with Creeper. But then again, the same could've said about Creeper taking space from HIVE, so yeah. Creeper having a past with Artemis is by itself another problem since it actually goes against what we've been told of Artemis' past (that she was focused on the Bow of Ra the entire time) and the relatively familiarity she displays with Ryder also conflicts with her hardass persona Lobdell has built over the whole series.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    You guys aren't seeing my issue with this development (and that in fact is a general issue I've had with the entire plot) is that the addition is completely superfluos and makes the plot developments needlessly contrived. Letting the audience know that Jason has doubts about Bizarro's behavior didn't need of a mind reading enemy and even less one so powerful like Queen Bee is. She was Brainiac's second in command last time Lobdell used her. Her apparition as it is now feels forced and while it can be shown to be part of larger plan in upcoming issues, the whole thing with the SS and Batwoman on this arc makes me doubt the payoff (if there's any) would be. The wast of HIVE is also in stark contrast with the skillful way Lobdell handed NOWHERE and Harvest's appearance in the previous issue.
    Well, if what shocked the Queen Bee was not Jason's repressing suspicion about Bizarro but something else that only she could see, then her part in the story is kind of necessary (or someone else who must have similar level of power to see it).

    I agree that the SS (and Batwoman/TEC) parts are not very necessary elements, considering Bizarro's amazing technics. He could just put Jason and Artemis into some 'bottle', too, or simply put them in a deep sleep so that he could go to Arctic to get whatever he wanted. But he'd rather go through all the trouble and bet on Batwoman/TEC -> Waller/SS -> a mission in Arctic would happen. Harley was mentioned very early in Volume 1, but she almost had no interaction with Jason to properly end that clue.

    I actually like this issue a lot because #17 was empty (I think) and the story had been a little bit slow for a while.

  10. #85
    Spectacular Member magpieM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Potion View Post
    So RHATO gets back to top form according to this long time reviewer.
    https://batman-news.com/2018/01/11/r...aws-18-review/
    Only one thing I don't agree with the reviewer: I still prefer Soy as the artist because both Jason and Artemis look more handsome in Soy's art

  11. #86
    Spectacular Member magpieM's Avatar
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    Just some other thoughts:

    One thing that I'm always confused about is how relevant are the letter and what Bizarro has been doing? The important thing that Ma Gunn wanted to tell Jason might be: Jason your father may still be alive! ... But whatever it is, why does Bizarro so anxious about it? Is he worrying that if Jason found something about his own family, he would forget Bizarro? Is that just so?

    I like this Creeper. If Bizarro had prepared so much to invite him, and Creeper himself was kind of looking for Artemis this whole time, then I don't think this rush meeting would only be one-shot. It may not be the best time to include him in the team now. But I do hope he would show up and (at least) hang around for a while in the future. I think Artemis side of story really needs to be enhanced more.

    And I love the pup pup!! So adorable ~

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpieM View Post
    I'm not very familiar with the style of the artist of this issue, but I think I haven't seen any panel showing a 'dark shadow' behind a certain character since RHATO rebirth started, no matter it's Soy's art or others. (Do correct me if I missed any!) When Jason was pointing the gun at her, there was a bigger, pure black shadow behind him, with exactly the same silhouette like himself. And his (dialog/thought) balloons were circled by some extra red outlines. There are some weird/scary moments in this issue, and I got my first one right there. It feels like there is another 'self' of him that finally got a chance to reveal its existence in Queen Bee's eyes at the moment, with a different voice.

    I also think that this 'shadow' and voice could very possibly deform into something monstrous that made her completely terrified before Bizarro interfered.
    I assumed that was just Jason projecting his thoughts. HIVE Queen doesn't immediately freak out so I didn't think that was what bothered her.

    Quote Originally Posted by magpieM View Post
    One thing that I'm always confused about is how relevant are the letter and what Bizarro has been doing? The important thing that Ma Gunn wanted to tell Jason might be: Jason your father may still be alive! ... But whatever it is, why does Bizarro so anxious about it? Is he worrying that if Jason found something about his own family, he would forget Bizarro? Is that just so?
    It could be because Bizarro knows Jason wouldn't react well to his dad returning since they didn't have a good relationship. Gunn also read where Willis mentions missing "her" possibly Jason's birth mom or even the mom of another unknown sibling.
    Last edited by EMarie; 01-14-2018 at 07:35 AM.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpieM View Post
    I agree that the SS (and Batwoman/TEC) parts are not very necessary elements, considering Bizarro's amazing technics. He could just put Jason and Artemis into some 'bottle', too, or simply put them in a deep sleep so that he could go to Arctic to get whatever he wanted. But he'd rather go through all the trouble and bet on Batwoman/TEC -> Waller/SS -> a mission in Arctic would happen. Harley was mentioned very early in Volume 1, but she almost had no interaction with Jason to properly end that clue.
    While I agree that SS and Tec parts weren't the most enjoyable, it still serves as a mean to see Bizarro's gradual decline, and we get to go from "Poor Bizarro his mind is slipping" to "That's not okay, Bizarro" in a natural progression. Yes it was a little convoluted, but if he did like you proposed, for me I'd imagine it taking away the joy of slowly understanding what's happening with him, as well as being very disappointed at the sudden edge to his character that makes him so easily cross the line.

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    So, according to a source from tumblr.

    spoilers:
    That woman saw something in Jason that Ducra from the All Caste saw. That something will bring back Essence and will probably have Roy and maybe even Kori to return. Bruce, most definitely.

    There is another big “project” is coming up and Jason will be a part of it. Basically “save” Jason part and will go on (hopefully ) to explain why and how Jason came back.
    end of spoilers

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Potion View Post
    While I agree that SS and Tec parts weren't the most enjoyable, it still serves as a mean to see Bizarro's gradual decline, and we get to go from "Poor Bizarro his mind is slipping" to "That's not okay, Bizarro" in a natural progression. Yes it was a little convoluted, but if he did like you proposed, for me I'd imagine it taking away the joy of slowly understanding what's happening with him, as well as being very disappointed at the sudden edge to his character that makes him so easily cross the line.
    Thing is, there moments that we were shown about Bizarro's condition deteriorating were independent of the events with the SS and Batwoman. If anything their involvement did the opposite to showing any deteriorating since Bizarro's contrived plan went off without a hitch.

    Personally I think that replacing those scenes with others where Bizarro is taking more drastic measures or acts erratically for some reason or another (like it happened on the present issue) would serve to illustrate his failing mind better.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Potion View Post
    So, according to a source from tumblr.

    spoilers:
    That woman saw something in Jason that Ducra from the All Caste saw. That something will bring back Essence and will probably have Roy and maybe even Kori to return. Bruce, most definitely.

    There is another big “project” is coming up and Jason will be a part of it. Basically “save” Jason part and will go on (hopefully ) to explain why and how Jason came back.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    I'm game for anything that get us more All Caste but I hope the second part is just a baseless rumor. There's no need to change the reasons for Jason's resurrection beyond making it from the Lazarus Pit. Making or tying it to an event needlessly complicate things further and the odds for becoming a complete nonsense are incredibly high. Is like if people didn't learnt from the "punching reality" debacle.
    end of spoilers

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