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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    The concept of Mjolnor has never been "everyone that is worthy by any degree can wield the power of Thor" it is a self reflective enchantment. One needs to be worthy enough to wield the power of Thor.
    And all we know from Secret Wars is that Thor was worthy enough he could no longer lift Thorr's hammer. Whether he became worthy enough to lift his own is never answered, to my knowledge.

    But as the timeline was rebooted, the entire thing never happened in the current MU so as far as I know, it has no bearing on the Odinson. Perhaps he was truly worthy in those last moments against the Beyonders, but it doesn't matter because that didn't happen in the current reality. The incursions never happened, so Thor never fought an army of Beyonders and whatever degree of worthiness he regained didnt happen either.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Do people want Hickman's ending for Thor Odinson? Basically, he's worthy but now dead?
    I'd prefer dead to a sloppy ineffectual drunk who joins nazi organizations because he doesn't understand human politics (ugh) and kisses the ass of a character who would be the worst of the silver age love interest characters if not for Jean Loring taking that prize and is now being hailed as the greatest hero ever but comes off more as a suicidal hotheaded brutish thrillseeker.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And all we know from Secret Wars is that Thor was worthy enough he could no longer lift Thorr's hammer. Whether he became worthy enough to lift his own is never answered, to my knowledge.

    But as the timeline was rebooted, the entire thing never happened in the current MU so as far as I know, it has no bearing on the Odinson. Perhaps he was truly worthy in those last moments against the Beyonders, but it doesn't matter because that didn't happen in the current reality. The incursions never happened, so Thor never fought an army of Beyonders and whatever degree of worthiness he regained didnt happen either.
    No it all happened don’t let the people that misunderstand Secret Wars away you. Secret Wars didn’t involve a reset.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Reader View Post
    I'd prefer dead to a sloppy ineffectual drunk who joins nazi organizations because he doesn't understand human politics (ugh) and kisses the ass of a character who would be the worst of the silver age love interest characters if not for Jean Loring taking that prize and is now being hailed as the greatest hero ever but comes off more as a suicidal hotheaded brutish thrillseeker.
    That’s all your own perspective and totally unrelated to anything that actually happens in the books. Odinson got drunk twice in continuity, once in Thor and once in Jean Grey (when he was still effective), Odinson trusted Captain America which is understandable when he appeared to lift Mjölnir, and the rest I don’t even recognise what you are talking about.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    That’s all your own perspective and totally unrelated to anything that actually happens in the books. Odinson got drunk twice in continuity, once in Thor and once in Jean Grey (when he was still effective), Odinson trusted Captain America which is understandable when he appeared to lift Mjölnir, and the rest I don’t even recognise what you are talking about.

    Wasn't he also rather focused on the mead in the unworthy mini

    I appreciate you are likely literally correct, but it certainly felt like drinking his sorrows away so to speak was how his general attitude was presented

    that's how it felt to me for a lot of his stories, even if he wasn't sat in the tavern

    for me the times we did see this were meant be to hugely indicative of his general attitude

    That's what I felt as a reader based on the style of writing whether it was on panel or not

    but I see your perspective too

    As for trusting cap, for me that was the weakest show of thors recent history, he's had concerns about the hammer affecting jane, he sees cap can hold the hammer sure, but against everything else he sees, knowing that caps working for a facist terror group, very poor imo


    For me a more likely response would have been for him to question what was now wrong with his hammer, coz no way that cap was worthy, janes example would have been proof of that to him I feel

    But that's just my perspective of thors part in what I saw as a poor story in general
    Last edited by kilderkin; 01-07-2018 at 02:59 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    No it all happened don’t let the people that misunderstand Secret Wars away you. Secret Wars didn’t involve a reset.
    Okay, so how did Tony go from "world's most wanted man" to cops saying stuff like he'd never kill anyone because he's a hero?

    *Something* got erased from history. The whole space nation with Black Panther is built on the idea of those students not dying isnt it?
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  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Okay, so how did Tony go from "world's most wanted man" to cops saying stuff like he'd never kill anyone because he's a hero?

    *Something* got erased from history. The whole space nation with Black Panther is built on the idea of those students not dying isnt it?
    Those kids didn't die because they were rescued and pulled into the present. Read Black Panther and the Wakanda books and you will see that everything happened exactly as it did in Hickman. The biggest change to the world before and after is that Wakanda was ressurected (except Shuri), but everyone remembers what happened so it is the strangest place in terms of memory I guess.

    There are now so many references to what the world now understands happened it should be indisputable. The public remember the incursion stuff, end of the world and are in various states of confusion or denial as to what actually happened on that day. Most recently in Marvel Two-In-One the last day is remembered and the words of Sue just before she got sucked out of the raft are recalled. So Marvel are not going to wave their hands and say that day never happened becuse the return of the F4 is dependent upon that story now.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 01-07-2018 at 04:00 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    Wasn't he also rather focused on the mead in the unworthy mini

    I appreciate you are likely literally correct, but it certainly felt like drinking his sorrows away so to speak was how his general attitude was presented

    that's how it felt to me for a lot of his stories, even if he wasn't sat in the tavern

    for me the times we did see this were meant be to hugely indicative of his general attitude

    That's what I felt as a reader based on the style of writing whether it was on panel or not

    but I see your perspective too

    As for trusting cap, for me that was the weakest show of thors recent history, he's had concerns about the hammer affecting jane, he sees cap can hold the hammer sure, but against everything else he sees, knowing that caps working for a facist terror group, very poor imo


    For me a more likely response would have been for him to question what was now wrong with his hammer, coz no way that cap was worthy, janes example would have been proof of that to him I feel

    But that's just my perspective of thors part in what I saw as a poor story in general

    Associating Thor with being a drunkard just because he drinks and frequents bars would effectively say that he has always been a drunkard throughout his entire time on earth. Not to mention every time he revisits Asgard in the comics.

    In Secret Empire we really don't follow Odinson so we have no idea what he sees. We know that Cap personally tries to keep a lid on him, he is being lied to and probably kept in the dark like the public were.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 01-07-2018 at 04:05 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Those kids didn't die because they were rescued and pulled into the present. Read Black Panther and the Wakanda books and you will see that everything happened exactly as it did in Hickman. The biggest change to the world before and after is that Wakanda was ressurected (except Shuri), but everyone remembers what happened so it is the strangest place in terms of memory I guess.

    There are now so many references to what the world now understands happened it should be indisputable. The public remember the incursion stuff, end of the world and are in various states of confusion or denial as to what actually happened on that day. Most recently in Marvel Two-In-One the last day is remembered and the words of Sue just before she got sucked out of the raft are recalled. So Marvel are not going to wave their hands and say that day never happened becuse the return of the F4 is dependent upon that story now.
    Ah, I missed that from Black Panther. I fell behind over the holiday season (start of November actually) and there are some big holes in my reading, even among my regular pull list (which is a lot shorter on Marvel than it was before Secret Wars anyway).

    Seems that all of this stuff has been happening in books Im not reading, or in issues I've missed.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Associating Thor with being a drunkard just because he drinks and frequents bars would effectively say that he has always been a drunkard throughout his entire time on earth. Not to mention every time he revisits Asgard in the comics.

    In Secret Empire we really don't follow Odinson so we have no idea what he sees. We know that Cap personally tries to keep a lid on him, he is being lied to and probably kept in the dark like the public were.

    The difference in him in recent years and all his past is I've never seen him look like he was using the drink as a crutch, at least not regularly because of self loathing and dought

    I feel this is what those scenes were suggesting

    I done need to see it often to think this

    I've never seen him shave or use the loo, but I guess he does (ill bet there a panel of it but there you go☺)

    I suppose I'm saying it that the creatives were showing him turn to drink as a crutch due to his low self esteem, not showing it often doesn't change that for me

    But I appreciate we have different perspectives on this aspect of the art here

    as for secret empire, I felt that was poorly handles generally, Thor and caps relationship no less than anything else

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I have listened to him talking about his discussion with Aaron on an old podcast. And ‘people you have talked to’ vs common sense that when a character is being writtten by a specific writer their major issues will not be resolved outside of that writer’s books.

    And the LOGIC of the writing by Hickman is obvious. The mirror universe is a simple shorthand that everyone understands. Thorr wouldn’t be a mirror Thor if he was just ‘not worthy’. He has to be exceptional.
    Can I have the name and/or link to this podcast that gives you such an insightful view into Hickman's view points that makes Hickman's logic SO OBVIOUS to an intellect such as yourself's and not to us poor lowly Thor fans that should just shut up and enjoy the Jane Foster story or drop the book. Aaron might chose to ignore Hickman's story but that doesn't mean we have to retcon it in our heads to fit into whatever mess Aaron is spinning. I would have much rather preferred that noble death to this.

    Yes, it is clearly the other people that lack common sense and you, being the gate keeper of all that is Thor and logical, should just tell us what the comics mean, and we should just be quiet and except it......

    Lol, it's like a real life representation of Jane talking down to Asgard. Condescending but not saying much.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    The difference in him in recent years and all his past is I've never seen him look like he was using the drink as a crutch, at least not regularly because of self loathing and dought

    I feel this is what those scenes were suggesting

    I done need to see it often to think this

    I've never seen him shave or use the loo, but I guess he does (ill bet there a panel of it but there you go☺)

    I suppose I'm saying it that the creatives were showing him turn to drink as a crutch due to his low self esteem, not showing it often doesn't change that for me

    But I appreciate we have different perspectives on this aspect of the art here

    as for secret empire, I felt that was poorly handles generally, Thor and caps relationship no less than anything else
    You are far from the only one who thinks that way.

    Odinson's number of appearances have dropped SIGNIFICANTLY since Jane Foster took up the mantle as Jane Thor, so the fact that we've seen him drinking as often as we have, gives it that much more impact on his mindset.

    The Jean Grey issue was one of the few that was dedicated purely to Thor and portrayed him in a positive light but even then he was drowning his sorrows in a glass of mead.

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