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  1. #1
    Mighty Member
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    Default Superman Villains: How would you fix Doomsday?

    Doomsday is remembered primarily for Killing Superman, unfortunately, that's not something he can do every time he shows up. Since he keeps coming back, how would you utilize him?

    I have two ideas

    The first idea is to make him not a Superman villain. Make him a villain for the broader DC Universe. I imagine you can get more mileage out of other heroes having to face down the guy that killed freaking Superman than trotting him out every so often for a fist fight.

    My second idea is based on the idea that Superman, at his core, does two things. He saves people, and he beats the bad guys. Doomsday, from his inception, was a character that Superman cannot beat. As such, what if Doomsday was a bad guy that Superman had to save. A tragic monster who is trapped in a hell beyond their control, and Superman can stop him by giving him relief from his pain

  2. #2
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I don't think he needs fixing. His gimmick, that he becomes more dangerous every time you beat him and specifically immune to the last way you beat him, is strong. Strong enough that if they were decently conservative about using him rarely, he'd make a perfect filler monster to wheel out when you need a physical threat.

    He's basically the flip side of Mxy. He's dour and hostile instead of being haphazardly playful, but just the same forces Superman to think outside the box because he can't be handled plainly.

  3. #3
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    I think Doomsday is not really fixable.

    He either is so powerful Superman can't defeat him (or can only do so at a high cost) or he's just another monsterous punching bag. And comics don't really want the former (no lasting damage that isn't eventually reversed) while we have enough of the latter.

  4. #4
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    Make him intelligent and have him seek redemption by becoming a hero. Have a Doomsday clone for writers who need something to punch.

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think they answered this in the New52, actually.

    Doomsday isn't a character. It has no personality or motivation. Its a plot device. So instead of trying to make Doomsday interesting as an individual with some form of agency, you make it a natural disaster/epidemic that Clark has to deal with. Its not the disaster that holds your interest (though the destruction porn can be fun) its how the hero tackles it.

    Imagine Clark on a space trip, and crashing on a red sun world where the Doomsday virus ran rampant and the whole world is dead except for the half dozen Doomsdays that can't kill each other.

    What if Intergang had a sample of the virus and planned on selling it to the highest bidder? Superman versus every terrorist organization and cult in the DCU, with Metropolis as ground zero, and a tiny glass vial that could end the world in the middle of it all?

    What if General Eiling got a hold of it and wanted to weaponize it for the government? Wait, Eiling is the Shaggy Man now right? Even better! Are you ready for General Doom-Shag?

    What if Perry was infected? Or Jon? Krypto? Or Maggie Sawyer or Lois or whoever. Doomsday Bibbo!

    Doomsday isn't a villain. It's the next step in biological terrorism that can also swing as a horror/thriller/Aliens type story. You dont write stories about Doomsday. You write stories about other characters dealing with the Doomsday virus.

    EDIT: Also works really well to build up another villain too. If a new foe shows up with half a dozen Doomsdays under his control, that new villain is immediately gonna be seen as a high level threat.
    Last edited by Ascended; 01-06-2018 at 07:23 PM.
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  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I was about to post "The New 52 already fixed him".

    But Ascended beat me to it.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  7. #7
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Make him like the Golom. A creature others can control as a weapon. Since he doesn't have a personality of his own, he fits this narrative perfectly. I could see someone like Ras getting a hold of him and using him. For that matter, is he even a "he" in the technical sense? Does "he" even have genitals?
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  8. #8
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think they answered this in the New52, actually.

    Doomsday isn't a character. It has no personality or motivation. Its a plot device. So instead of trying to make Doomsday interesting as an individual with some form of agency, you make it a natural disaster/epidemic that Clark has to deal with. Its not the disaster that holds your interest (though the destruction porn can be fun) its how the hero tackles it.

    Imagine Clark on a space trip, and crashing on a red sun world where the Doomsday virus ran rampant and the whole world is dead except for the half dozen Doomsdays that can't kill each other.

    What if Intergang had a sample of the virus and planned on selling it to the highest bidder? Superman versus every terrorist organization and cult in the DCU, with Metropolis as ground zero, and a tiny glass vial that could end the world in the middle of it all?

    What if General Eiling got a hold of it and wanted to weaponize it for the government? Wait, Eiling is the Shaggy Man now right? Even better! Are you ready for General Doom-Shag?

    What if Perry was infected? Or Jon? Krypto? Or Maggie Sawyer or Lois or whoever. Doomsday Bibbo!

    Doomsday isn't a villain. It's the next step in biological terrorism that can also swing as a horror/thriller/Aliens type story. You dont write stories about Doomsday. You write stories about other characters dealing with the Doomsday virus.

    EDIT: Also works really well to build up another villain too. If a new foe shows up with half a dozen Doomsdays under his control, that new villain is immediately gonna be seen as a high level threat.
    Good stuff as usual Ascended, I'm a fan of this premise.

    The other big thing the New 52 did with Doomsday that I liked was the Tulpa Superman from Earth 45, "the Last Knight of Tomorrow", which combined Doomsday, Superman and Morrison's earlier "Hexus: the Living Corporation" from Marvel Boy. I thought that figure worked really well.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Classic Doomsday sucks and cannot be redeemed. He needs to be retired forever.

    The ideas introduced in the New 52 (Superdoom and the Doomsday virus) were superior. The former works especially well with the meta commentary involved in it. A soulless, corporate driven, dark and gritty "antihero" creature being the thing that kills Superman is perfect. At least temporarily, before he comes back and overcomes it.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Good stuff as usual Ascended, I'm a fan of this premise.

    The other big thing the New 52 did with Doomsday that I liked was the Tulpa Superman from Earth 45, "the Last Knight of Tomorrow", which combined Doomsday, Superman and Morrison's earlier "Hexus: the Living Corporation" from Marvel Boy. I thought that figure worked really well.
    Thanks! I appreciate it, but really all Im suggesting is that they keep what they already did with Doomsday and just continue along those lines.

    And hey! Another Marvel Boy fan! I thought I was the only one who remembered that story! I still consider that mini one of the best Marvel stories of the modern era.
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  11. #11
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Thanks! I appreciate it, but really all Im suggesting is that they keep what they already did with Doomsday and just continue along those lines.

    And hey! Another Marvel Boy fan! I thought I was the only one who remembered that story! I still consider that mini one of the best Marvel stories of the modern era.
    Hell yeah! I love that comic.

    It is interesting that in a both this and the Doomsday thread, your answer to "how to fix them" was basically "give a specific version of the character more exposure". I think that's just about right, and could probably be applied to Metallo and Parasite too. For the most part, Superman has pretty decent villains. They're just not used that much.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  12. #12
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    He was a gimmick and should never ever be back. It just cheapens the Death Of Superman story

  13. #13
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I don't think his reappearance diminishes that story, since there was way more going on than just fighting Doomsday. Personally I thought Hunter/Prey and Doomsday Wars were both really good mileage to get out of a rather basic monster. Its appearance in Superman #175 could have been its last and they could have saved it from then until the New 52 revamps, which I thought were two cool ideas even if the Doomed story itself didn't hook me at the time. But ten years without using Doomsday would have been nice.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Hell yeah! I love that comic.

    It is interesting that in a both this and the Doomsday thread, your answer to "how to fix them" was basically "give a specific version of the character more exposure". I think that's just about right, and could probably be applied to Metallo and Parasite too. For the most part, Superman has pretty decent villains. They're just not used that much.
    Hell yeah. Metallo and Parasite are great. They just need some TLC.

    I'd love to see DC say "Okay writers, for the next two years you can't use any new villains or any of the big name classics. Take some of these B/C-list bad guys and make them interesting, and make them matter."

    Look at what Johns did with the Flash Rogues in that timeframe. Or his work with the Star Sapphires between Sinestro Corps War and Blackest Night. Two years is all it takes to turn a B-lister into a popular villain. If you're dealing with a Z-lister like Kite-Man, all it takes is one issue. And a mountain of imagination and skill, but still.
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    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

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  15. #15
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Hell yeah. Metallo and Parasite are great. They just need some TLC.

    I'd love to see DC say "Okay writers, for the next two years you can't use any new villains or any of the big name classics. Take some of these B/C-list bad guys and make them interesting, and make them matter."

    Look at what Johns did with the Flash Rogues in that timeframe. Or his work with the Star Sapphires between Sinestro Corps War and Blackest Night. Two years is all it takes to turn a B-lister into a popular villain. If you're dealing with a Z-lister like Kite-Man, all it takes is one issue. And a mountain of imagination and skill, but still.
    I tend to agree.

    That said, I also think an issue with some of Superman's b-list foes is that writers rarely use other writers' ideas in their own use of the characters. Two years worth of being forced to use Metallo is an awesome idea, but if in another half a year after that, another writer takes Metallo and totally ignores what had been done with him... For example, the New 52 Metallo was pretty well developed, but as soon as Rebirth hit, a totally irreconcilable John Corben took his place, you know? Same thing happened to New 52 Mxy. Bizarro's a little different, since there's room for more than one Bizarro (arguably a whole planetful, in fact).

    Or heck, Kurt Busiek did a lot with the pernicious Prankster that was fun, memorable and worked within continuity- but since nobody else ever picked it up, history has largely forgotten it.

    Hrm. I wonder what Superman Z-Listers could use a comeback.

    I'd like to see Urko the Terrible again, haha!



    But somehow, I don't think he's necessarily the best call.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

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