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  1. #61
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Thing is, that speculation, if it does exist, is based off of absolutely nothing of merit within the actual pages. I mean, where on earth on the printed page could one get the sense that he will end up a more developed hero than Diana? The only indication thus far is that he wants to learn and help as she does and that she is willing to teach him. Where in that there is to glean that he'll become better than her is mind-boggling at this stage. It can only be born from a "assume the worst even without any evidence, because I hate this character and want to hate him even more" state of mind at the moment.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Thing is, that speculation, if it does exist, is based off of absolutely nothing of merit within the actual pages. I mean, where on earth on the printed page could one get the sense that he will end up a more developed hero than Diana? The only indication thus far is that he wants to learn and help as she does and that she is willing to teach him. Where in that there is to glean that he'll become better than her is mind-boggling at this stage. It can only be born from a "assume the worst even without any evidence, because I hate this character and want to hate him even more" state of mind at the moment.
    I have to agree somewhat. I am very unimpressed by Jason so far and wish he'd go away already, but him being a better developed hero than Diana is not something that can realistically ever happen. For one thing, she's been around for 75 years and he hasn't, so a handful of crappy issues with him in them are not a threat to her. She and the franchise have bounced back from FAR worse than this. This title needs a creative shift ASAP, but we'll survive. I don't even think Jason has to be dumped, even if I wouldn't shed any tears if he is. A writer other than Robinson could offer a more interesting take for all we know, and balance it out better by recognizing Diana is the actual star we're paying to read about.

  3. #63
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I can understand where you all are coming from. I mean, I'm definitely not trying to play high ground here. I get exaggerating certain things out of a dislike of a character. Heaven knows I've done it plenty of times (I do recall disliking the concept of Jon so much for Rebirth that I was theorizing ways to get rid of him before he'd even debuted in the main titles, and I STILL don't particularly care for him even today to the point that I have negative bias to his storylines). So yeah, just debate, no judging.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-12-2018 at 04:37 PM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  4. #64
    Incredible Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    Actually the opposite. In most tellings, "The child was originally given the name Alcides by his parents; it was only later that he became known as Heracles. He was renamed Heracles in an unsuccessful attempt to mollify Hera."
    I should re-iterate; Hera took quite the offense by the name.

  5. #65
    Incredible Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I can understand where you all are coming from. I mean, I'm definitely not trying to play high ground here. I get exaggerating certain things out of a dislike of a character. Heaven knows I've done it plenty of times (I do recall disliking the concept of Jon so much for Rebirth that I was theorizing ways to get rid of him before he'd even debuted in the main titles, and I STILL don't particularly care for him even today to the point that I have negative bias to his storylines). So yeah, just debate, no judging.
    You fiend!
    joking.
    To each their own though. But Jon has been about the only person I've seen to actually get Damian to act like a kid sometimes. And Damian even admitted in the most recent issue of Teen Titans that he sees Jon as his friend.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member Gemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Thing is, that speculation, if it does exist, is based off of absolutely nothing of merit within the actual pages. I mean, where on earth on the printed page could one get the sense that he will end up a more developed hero than Diana? The only indication thus far is that he wants to learn and help as she does and that she is willing to teach him. Where in that there is to glean that he'll become better than her is mind-boggling at this stage. It can only be born from a "assume the worst even without any evidence, because I hate this character and want to hate him even more" state of mind at the moment.
    I said he'd be more well developed than Diana not that he'd be a better hero than her. Which can be assumed from the writing where we have spent very little time since rebirth understanding or learning about this Diana(I'm not talking about Wonder Woman as a 75 year old character). She gets very little focus especially for a main character in her own book. The only issues that really did that were those 5 fill in issues. I'm not sure who this Diana is or what she does or why she does it. Yet, her brother at least gets some personality traits to help define him and more insight into where he is mentally than we've got from Diana. OFC this is me assuming based off the 2 or so issues of this run I've read but every issue everyone says that there has been no focus on her character so I doubt anything significant could have happened in the handful of issues I missed that would make me change my mind.

    So if this run ends up with him becoming a hero of some kind we'd have spent more time focusing on and "empathizing with"( or at least Robinson's intentions would be for us to do this though I definitely will not) with Jason way more than we have with Rebirth Diana.

    I can understand where you all are coming from. I mean, I'm definitely not trying to play high ground here. I get exaggerating certain things out of a dislike of a character. Heaven knows I've done it plenty of times (I do recall disliking the concept of Jon so much for Rebirth that I was theorizing ways to get rid of him before he'd even debuted in the main titles, and I STILL don't particularly care for him even today to the point that I have negative bias to his storylines). So yeah, just debate, no judging.
    I never thought it was anything but debate/talking, hope I didn't come across any other way
    Last edited by Gemini; 01-12-2018 at 05:32 PM.

  7. #67
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Yes, but what have we seen so far that gives you this impression?

    Jason had an entire issue dedicated to him, and, to me, he was nothing more than a two dimensional character then and has remained so. No real motivation for joining up with the woman who had killed his brothers and sister, including one of his very few friends, Hercules. No motivation for why he would want to kill Diana. No real motivation for why he suddenly changed his mind.

    An immortal raised in a fishing village wants to be a hero like his sister, who he never tries to meet, and ends up instead pairing up with Diana's 'dark twin', Grail for...no reason that I've seen.

    Sadly, to me, there's just nothing *to* Jason, and I've seen nothing in Robinson's writing to date that indicates that we'll see anything more than what we already have for him as well as for any other cast members.

  8. #68
    Mighty Member Gemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Yes, but what have we seen so far that gives you this impression?

    Jason had an entire issue dedicated to him, and, to me, he was nothing more than a two dimensional character then and has remained so. No real motivation for joining up with the woman who had killed his brothers and sister, including one of his very few friends, Hercules. No motivation for why he would want to kill Diana. No real motivation for why he suddenly changed his mind.

    An immortal raised in a fishing village wants to be a hero like his sister, who he never tries to meet, and ends up instead pairing up with Diana's 'dark twin', Grail for...no reason that I've seen.

    Sadly, to me, there's just nothing *to* Jason, and I've seen nothing in Robinson's writing to date that indicates that we'll see anything more than what we already have for him as well as for any other cast members.
    I havent read those issues so I guess I can be wrong, but just from the information floating around the forum and from this issue I feel I get a better understanding and impression of who this character is or is supposed to be than I have gotten from Diana at any point since Rebirth started despite all thats been happening around her.

    He's having, what seems to be, this entire emotional arc preparing him for the world of being a hero and Diana didn't get that and we haven't really gotten much from her with regards to that outside of those 5 filler issues about how the amazons wanted her to be a fighter and not be a kid. Everything else has been about someone else since Rucka focused mostly on Veronica and the villains( which I at least feel was justified) and this run has focused more on Jason, Darkseid, and Zeus than Diana. I don't think I've seen much about Diana as a character and what conclusions she's drawing from all of this and how it relates to her journey.
    Last edited by Gemini; 01-12-2018 at 06:58 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Since when is throwing a party equal to being a deadbeat? Immature and a little disrespectful sure, since this isn't his pad and he didn't ask first.
    You mean throwing a party AFTER assaulting, kidnapping, and trying to kill his sister, right? But, calling him a "deadbeat" is going to make him sound worse than he has been shown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The very idea of basic character development is now wretched and like fanfic?
    Well, if this were QUALITY character development, you would have a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Thing is, that speculation, if it does exist, is based off of absolutely nothing of merit within the actual pages. I mean, where on earth on the printed page could one get the sense that he will end up a more developed hero than Diana? The only indication thus far is that he wants to learn and help as she does and that she is willing to teach him. Where in that there is to glean that he'll become better than her is mind-boggling at this stage. It can only be born from a "assume the worst even without any evidence, because I hate this character and want to hate him even more" state of mind at the moment.
    No evidence? Except all EIGHT issues of the run, thus far - none of which has actually shown quality writing for Diana (or anyone else, for that matter).

    Let me put it this way, if a friend of yours recently saw the WW movie and asked you for recommendations of what to read, would you really suggest this storyline?
    Last edited by Awonder; 01-13-2018 at 02:08 AM.

  10. #70
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    We weren't discussing what he did in the past arc. We were discussing just his throwing a party and its reflection independently of everything else. If one wants to bring up the past arc in regards to how one feels his total character, that's obviously valid, it just wasn't part what I was discussing in particular beforehand. But of course that's a poor reflection of his total character.

    And I said there's no evidence that if he becomes a hero, it will show him becoming somehow better at it than Diana, in response to a specific earlier claim. Nothing about the writing, whether one likes it or not, suggests that.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-13-2018 at 10:59 AM.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The CBR article has an interesting theory of a possible hint that Doctor Psycho is once again involved in Vanessa's turn.
    I reckon you’re right, ‘the doctor with the big ears and the warm smile’ stays resolutely off panel. Suspicious!
    How ironic (choke)

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Getting Psycho back in the game would be nice, I just wish it was in a much better run.

    Hmm, Rucka took care of re-introducing the Cheetah, Ares and his sons, Circe and Dr. Cyber, while Robinson is bringing back Giganta, Silver Swan and (possibly) Dr. Psycho. All the villains who consistently remained a thorn in Diana's side throughout the Bronze Age and/or post-Crisis. Rebirth really is shaping up to be Perez with some pre-Crisis Bronze Age weaved in, which isn't bad at all. But I'd really be interested in them doing the unexpected and bringing back the likes of Queen Clea, Blakfu or Zara.

  13. #73
    Invincible Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I think I realized why I like Jason (its not because I share his name!). He reminds me of Kon-El when he first showed up. Now I'm not saying he'll become as popular as Superboy would eventually become, but his beginnings are similar. My friends thought he was really annoying at first, and that they were trying too hard with this "kewl" character with an attitude problem. But he grew on you.
    They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son. - Jor-El.

  14. #74
    Marston > Kirby Vaffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The very idea of basic character development is now wretched and like fanfic?
    Hackneyed stories and stock "development," yes.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    He reminds me of Kon-El when he first showed up.
    A clone of Diana with a mysterious Y chromosome donor would be endlessly more interesting than a secret She-Ra twin.

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