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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    May 2014


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I think understanding a long term plan is in understanding its details. Like the "death of Zod" is funny because Quex strangles Zod. This story is remembered and even sometimes harshly criticized as a story where Superman kills Zod, and yet, Zod is the one of the three who actually dies outside of Superman's hands. For someone who isn't invested in a particular saga of the Superman character, sure. You can call a story anything you want and move on, and you still understand enough and like enough of other stuff to be as big a Superman fan as you believe. But although this is nitpicking in a simple sense, if you were to get the same information on a wiki blurb that you got from 22 pages of writing and drawing, then they wouldn't bother writing and drawing all that stuff in the first place.

    And yeah, things do get condensed in 80 years. That was kinda my Matt Smith example. If you like Doctor Who (I have no idea what a Who is, btw, someone else just mentioned it earlier) and like one version, then that's all the Who you need. If you say that other Who was not a Who, well, you gotta know that other Who. When you know your "Who" it's pretty obvious who doesn't. It's the details vs "vague parameters" mentioned in the OP. Personally, the comic book Superman before 1970 is thin ice to me. Broad strokes and just random stories, and I can't "get" it because I haven't experienced it.

    Oh, and Hitman #34, man. I love that Garth Ennis has that sweet side about Superman. Although I think that story was telling instead of showing, and it's a little strange that Superman had the time to sit on a rooftop with a shady stranger and have his ego stroked for like 20 pages. But for someone looking for a synopsis, that'd be the ticket.

    When people describe soft reboots they cover remodeling ideas, but that doesn't account for character. Having Lex focus on running Lexcorp instead of his science for its own sake or revenge is different from just making Lex a businessman. It changes his character. Having a young adult son changed his character. Having Clark Kent keep the same job and be taken seriously as a person didn't quite work if everyone distinctly remembers him not being a believable or likeable person. His entire history in Metropolis changed, and all of history changed, so just making the bronze age look like post crisis would have been hollow.

    I guess I would have to say that change is something for people to "get." I didn't "get" the change to Truth and originally cut out early although when I went back, realized that the stories weren't really bad. Just wasn't my thing. I guess it's a normal thing for people to not "get" the reboot although it clearly argued its validation in detail.
    I "get" what you're saying but, at the same time, look at Marvel. Tony Stark became a wise-cracking juvenile in the comics yet people, if they go back far enough, remember that he was a suave, sophisticated playboy more in the style of Earl Flynn or Clark Gable or whoever you might use as an example. Longtime fans even get understandably irritated by how they just change his personality even though it's was supposed to be the same character with the same continuity other than just soft reboots to make his stories closer to the present with the changes that inherently would include. "So who are you and what have you done with the real Tony Stark"? is a not uncommon joke or threads where someone asks, "What would a conversation between the original "real" Tony Stark and current Tony Stark be like?" even when they are supposed to be the same character. Or a story where Stark is shocked from finding out from older people how racist things were in the 1960s.

    But, as time went on, most people either accept the changes or, for younger readers, the wise-cracking juvenile is who he's always been.

    Oh I certainly know that not everything Post-Crisis could have been done as it was were it an update rather than a reboot, I think it could have worked. OR the Bronze Age could have been relegated to the latest alternate Earth rather than never having it never appear again.

    For a good example of a great reboot, I would use the earliest Nu stuff where you could really feel like this was what the original Superman would have been had he appeared in the early 21st century rather than 1938. I could accept at least a lot of it as merely a soft reboot of the original Superman, updating him to close to the present, just making out as if his earliest stories happened far more recently and even one upping Marvel by not just letting us squint our brains and imagine what Fantastic Four #1 or the first appearance of Iron-Man would have been had it happened today but actually rewriting it and showing us what those 1938 stories would have been today.
    People are so locked into a morally simplistic Silver Age image of Superman where he exists in a cartoon world of deus ex machina options that he's somehow invalidated completely because he kills a genocidal homicidal maniac because it's the only way to prevent that maniac from killing some innocent people and because he couldn't pull some deus ex machina BS out of his @$$ to avoid a hard decision.

  2. #47
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014


    Wise cracking juvenile... Teen Tony? I followed Iron Man when he was "hot" (starting with Ellis and trailing off during the Eisner winning Fraction run) and in those titles, he didn't appear any sort of juvenile or really different from at least the Michelinie stuff I've read. I could accept characterization changing over time, like how the stick in the mud Peter Parker from his high school days did become a well liked, big time joker in his personal life instead of just the costume. Because that's a hallmark of progression and seems inevitable when you run a story for 50 years. But to go from the Luthor of Superman Annual #12 to the Luthor who fell out with Perry during Vietnam would have been ridiculous in the space of two years without a clean break.

    The New 52 was the same idea regardless of the execution. Morrison sure did a bang up job with doing the other clean break, imo, but he was long gone by two years later and I think the other writers picked up only fragments that they could work with. Which was completely logical and sometimes very effective, but not the same.

  3. #48
    Spectacular Member jimmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Pacific Palisades


    How does that thing go oh...

    Tony Stark Makes you feel He's a cool exec With a heart of steel.
    As Iron Man, All jets a blaze, He's fighting' and smithing' With repulsor rays!

    Amazing armor! That's Iron Man!
    A blazing power! It's Iron Man!

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