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  1. #736
    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Absolutely nothing.

    I read your post wrong; I thought you were asking if the post-Crisis universe would've stuck around, not the pre-Crisis universe. My bad!

    I don't believe in reboots. They don't fix things, they just make it worse. A retcon here or there? A sliding timescale? Maybe a soft reboot for the properties that are in dire trouble? Okay. A full on reboot though? That's never the right answer.

    I haven't seen a problem in comic books yet, after 25+ years reading them, that couldn't be fixed with six months of quality writing.
    I concur, all it needed was some gardening and some hedge trimming to weed out few elements. Then fix the continuity and consistency in character / storytelling from book to book - which was really BAD at times.

  2. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Superman's not human. This shouldn't ever be lost on the character. He adores humanity. He loves them with every ounce of his being and will go to bat for them 10 times out of 10. That's the whole reason he makes the conscious decision to serve and protect them, where a lot of other people in his situation would want to rule them. But he's not human. He walks among them but he's not one of them.

    Can you go overboard with that? Sure. Can you go overboard in the other direction? Hell yes. Its about balance. In some ways he has a human frame of mind because he was raised like one. But in other ways he very much does not. There are so many aspects of about Superman that require a balancing act, and this is just one of them. You mess up one and the whole package can get screwed up. Its a tight-rope act with Superman that can be difficult and that difficulty I feel doesn't get the attention it deserves, nor writers the credit they deserve when they do balance it. I'm not trying to say he's the hardest character in literature to write or anything like that, but there are nuances to him nonetheless.
    Superman is not biologically a human, no. But he is one psychologically. He sees himself as one and that only makes sense because he was raised as one. It doesn't mean that he can't embrace his Kryptonian roots, but if Superman is in fact meant to serve as an analogue for immigrants in this country, then he is just as human as everyone else. Just like immigrants are just as American as everyone else.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  3. #738
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Not if we include his motorcycle, relationship with Diana, similar age to Jimmy instead of Batman, blog with Cat, etc. The costumes are symbolic of his uniqueness rather than a sole point of difference, I think.
    Losing his powers and having to ride a motorcycle would be something that could easily happen to any version of Superman, the blog with Cat is a modern extension of his profession that he could have done at any time, and he's been shipped teased with Diana since the dawn of time (much to my chagrin), this version is just the one that pulled the trigger. I'm not really sure what you mean by costumes being symbolic? He can wear tweaked versions of a costume even in one continuity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Superman is not biologically a human, no. But he is one psychologically. He sees himself as one and that only makes sense because he was raised as one. It doesn't mean that he can't embrace his Kryptonian roots, but if Superman is in fact meant to serve as an analogue for immigrants in this country, then he is just as human as everyone else. Just like immigrants are just as American as everyone else.
    Superman not being biologically human indicates that there are going to be fundamental differences between him and us no matter how he is raised. His brain isn't going to be wired exactly the same way. He essentially began his gradual ascent to godhood as a kid as his powers formed, and had to live with the experience. We can relate to his feelings of being an outsider, but the exact circumstances of his outsider-ness are not something we or even the average citizen in the DCU has experienced.

    Also, he didn't act any more alien and inhuman in the New 52 stories than he did previously. At least not in all of them, there are bound to be stinkers in every canon (and there were plenty in the ones that preceded post-Flashpoint).
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 03-13-2018 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #739
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Yep, that's all I mean. Being a literal, biological alien, there's going to be differences that no upbringing can just make a non-factor. It always has been and always will be a disservice to Superman to pretend those things aren't there. There are ways in which he feels very much human. There are ways in which he very much does not because he isn't. Ignore either and its a recipe for disaster.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  5. #740
    Notorious M.O.S. Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Losing his powers and having to ride a motorcycle would be something that could easily happen to any version of Superman, the blog with Cat is a modern extension of his profession that he could have done at any time, and he's been shipped teased with Diana since the dawn of time (much to my chagrin), this version is just the one that pulled the trigger. I'm not really sure what you mean by costumes being symbolic? He can wear tweaked versions of a costume even in one continuity.
    I say symbolic because when you see the New 52 Superman, you have a 20% chance of seeing him with a shaved head with wrapped knuckles. Because that era ran for roughly five years and Superman spent almost a whole year being a local underdog champion with no secret identity, it changes the landscape of the character you see. That look isn't for show, it represents a different Superman than we've seen. Not that those changes aren't spiritually similar to the golden age, as the t-shirt shield hammered home, but he occupied a different place in his world than the versions of the character that would come through a Google search of "classic Superman." Even in his standard armor, which I don't see as really different from the later costume in representing him, you see them convey a sense that he is younger, more passionate, and more intense than he really comes off elsewhere.

    Sure, any Superman could have all done that if they solar flared their powers away and got shot by Vandal Savage or something, because Superman's character doesn't change so extremely that he does something that would normally be out of the question. Or at least, it's pretty rare. But the thing is, he never did make those decisions before. Something about this one caused him to pull those triggers that just brushed his finger before.

    Superman not being biologically human indicates that there are going to be fundamental differences between him and us no matter how he is raised. His brain isn't going to be wired exactly the same way. He essentially began his gradual ascent to godhood as a kid as his powers formed, and had to live with the experience. We can relate to his feelings of being an outsider, but the exact circumstances of his outsider-ness are not something we or even the average citizen in the DCU has experienced.

    Also, he didn't act any more alien and inhuman in the New 52 stories than he did previously. At least not in all of them, there are bound to be stinkers in every canon (and there were plenty in the ones that preceded post-Flashpoint).
    This thread did make me think of that. There are some ways in which he can't feel human; it's possible to remove him a great deal if we factor in how much of our lives are according to our vulnerability. But at the same time, as a sentient being it's pretty much impossible for him to spend his entire life in the middle of the country and not to understand what it's like to be one of us.

    I agree with SK that you can't ignore either, but I also don't think you can drive one home without de-emphasizing the other for context.

  6. #741
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    In my mind, Superman is a god who thinks he's a man.

  7. #742
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yep, that's all I mean. Being a literal, biological alien, there's going to be differences that no upbringing can just make a non-factor. It always has been and always will be a disservice to Superman to pretend those things aren't there. There are ways in which he feels very much human. There are ways in which he very much does not because he isn't. Ignore either and its a recipe for disaster.
    I have to agree. I love the Post-Crisis Superman more then any other version. I love the Superman written by John Byrne. But truly speaking Superman is a mix. Both human and Kryptonian along with characteristics of living and experiencing the world as a god. I tend to prefer when the human side is more prominent. But to say that he is one at the expense of the other makes it more simplistic. I won't say a disaster. But one can argue it as a disservice. His experience is quite different from ordinary people.

  8. #743
    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    In my mind, Superman is a god who thinks he's a man.

    ^I like this....

    He is a god having an earthly experience ..the more powerful the better...

  9. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    In my mind, Superman is a god who thinks he's a man.
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
    ^I like this....

    He is a god having an earthly experience ..the more powerful the better...
    And wears his underwear outside his pants...it fits!

  10. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Superman not being biologically human indicates that there are going to be fundamental differences between him and us no matter how he is raised. His brain isn't going to be wired exactly the same way. He essentially began his gradual ascent to godhood as a kid as his powers formed, and had to live with the experience. We can relate to his feelings of being an outsider, but the exact circumstances of his outsider-ness are not something we or even the average citizen in the DCU has experienced.

    Also, he didn't act any more alien and inhuman in the New 52 stories than he did previously. At least not in all of them, there are bound to be stinkers in every canon (and there were plenty in the ones that preceded post-Flashpoint).
    I'm more so talking about what he identifies with and how he identifies. Like I said, Superman is not biologically human, but if you asked him where he came from and where's his home, he'd say his home is Earth. Krypton is where he came from, but its not his home. He's Kryptonian by birth, but not in spirit.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 03-15-2018 at 12:37 PM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  11. #746
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    And wears his underwear outside his pants...it fits!
    Superman has never worn underwear outside of his pants. Trunks are not and never have been worn as underwear.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Superman has never worn underwear outside of his pants. Trunks are not and never have been worn as underwear.
    I'll never understand the argument that they're an 'outdated' aspect of his costume. Shuster designed them as part of the costume because he was into bodybuilding (and they're still something bodybuilders wear), but regardless of their origins they're far more associated with superheroes than anything else now. It's like saying capes and boots are outdated.

    The dislike of such a quintessential part of the design stems from an insecurity about liking superheroes. It's the reason we used to get 10 seasons of a show like smallville featuring 'the blur,' and other types of 'hoodie and jeans' superhero drudgery. And that's not to say I didn't enjoy smallville early on, but when you've already explored most of superman's rogues gallery before he adopts the name or costume I think it's time to re-examine your priorities.

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by micahbevans88 View Post
    I'll never understand the argument that they're an 'outdated' aspect of his costume. Shuster designed them as part of the costume because he was into bodybuilding (and they're still something bodybuilders wear), but regardless of their origins they're far more associated with superheroes than anything else now. It's like saying capes and boots are outdated.
    They’re considered outdated because they look like something from the 40s and bodybuilders do not wear them today. Nor do you see most superheroes wearing such outifts.

    Quote Originally Posted by micahbevans88 View Post
    The dislike of such a quintessential part of the design stems from an insecurity about liking superheroes. It's the reason we used to get 10 seasons of a show like smallville featuring 'the blur,' and other types of 'hoodie and jeans' superhero drudgery. And that's not to say I didn't enjoy smallville early on, but when you've already explored most of superman's rogues gallery before he adopts the name or costume I think it's time to re-examine your priorities.
    Not liking every aspect of superheroes is not the same thing as being insecure about liking them. Being uncritical of things you like does not make you insecure, it means you have some sense of objectivity instead of loving it blindly.

  14. #749
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    I can't see how this is a 40s thing. Pretty much everyone's first Batman book is Dark Knight Returns.



    Or Year One or Killing Joke or Long Halloween.



    Batman the Animated Series is considered the gold standard of an animated series based on comic books. Arkham games are so famous.



    So, how is it that this is cool and new? But that is uncool or old. No one makes people stop reading Dark Knight Returns due to Batman's 'underwear'. Or stop purchasing those Arkham games when it is in the cover. I say people pay attention as DC wants them to pay attention.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 03-14-2018 at 01:23 AM.

  15. #750
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They’re considered outdated because they look like something from the 40s and bodybuilders do not wear them today. Nor do you see most superheroes wearing such outifts.
    People haven't worn capes since the 1800s. Should capes be dropped too because they are no longer in fashion?

    Not liking every aspect of superheroes is not the same thing as being insecure about liking them. Being uncritical of things you like does not make you insecure, it means you have some sense of objectivity instead of loving it blindly.
    How wide open are the eyes of people who think Superman's red trunks are underwear?

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