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  1. #106
    Astonishing Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    It perplexes me that such a thoughtful fan would judge a book based on descriptions of plot points and not read it for themselves, particularly when it's advocated for by posters you respect. I would guess that you would love it. It's not the way it's described here. The awful things that happen to the beloved characters are sensitively written by a super-fan in order to point out the horrific real world consequences of the violent world in which they operate. People that hate it have it in the "fridging" category. It's not that at all. Ralph and Sue have never been written with so much heart. I'd challenge you to read just the first issue and see if you're sure you want to avoid it. If you hate the first issue, I'd understand you opting not to ever read it. I don't ever understand someone deciding they hate something they've never read, for any reason.

    In my very strong opinion there has never been a better Justice League story nor one with more heart than this one. I think you're missing out. But my point is that you can't have any idea if you are or not.
    I agree, it's not some heartless indulgence in violence for plot, the consequences and relationships surrounding the traumatic event are the point of the story.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    It perplexes me that such a thoughtful fan would judge a book based on descriptions of plot points and not read it for themselves, particularly when it's advocated for by posters you respect. I would guess that you would love it. It's not the way it's described here. The awful things that happen to the beloved characters are sensitively written by a super-fan in order to point out the horrific real world consequences of the violent world in which they operate. People that hate it have it in the "fridging" category. It's not that at all. Ralph and Sue have never been written with so much heart. I'd challenge you to read just the first issue and see if you're sure you want to avoid it. If you hate the first issue, I'd understand you opting not to ever read it. I don't ever understand someone deciding they hate something they've never read, for any reason.

    In my very strong opinion there has never been a better Justice League story nor one with more heart than this one. I think you're missing out. But my point is that you can't have any idea if you are or not.
    This is nonsense. Identity Crisis is a garbage fire of a comic and arguably the worst Justice League story ever written.

    Meltzer put more effort into inciting agony and heartbreak and corrupting Silver Age stories than he does crafting a good plot...ALL he wants is that reaction. He painstakingly scripts a brutal rape scene that takes place in Sue's past, and not only does it end up having ZERO consequence beyond branding Dr. Light forever a serial rapist, but it's never shown to have any effect on Sue whatsoever. Meltzer puts this awful, AWFUL thing in her past and it's just treated as matter-of-fact with no intention of making any sense of it in regards to the history or context of the character. Sue was a victim in this story meant to shock the reader and nothing else. That's not to mention how before the rape scene we're quickly shown that Sue is suddenly pregnant RIGHT before she is brutally murdered. And we get to see Ralph holding the burnt husk of his dead wife as he beings to lose form. It was grotesque and heartless, using these characters as naught but a way to gain the readers' attention through shock value. Because nothing says "maturity" like rape and murder. How some were so easily fooled into thinking this was "heartfelt" is beyond me.

    And then we have Meltzer inserting into the Justice League's past the nefarious act of forcefully mindwiping their friend and teammate Batman. Not only that, but they spent YEARS without ever so much as attempting to tell him or make up for it, hell they never even put much thought towards it. They kept this dark betrayal a secret from even their loved ones. It was disgusting, and it's insane to me that Meltzer thinks the likes of Barry Allen could go through with this. Or that Zatanna would do that to her childhood friend. He proved countless times throughout Identity Crisis that he simply does not understand these characters at all.

    Oh and the whole murder plot, the entire reason the book exists? It doesn't even make sense. It was just another shameless attempt at "shocking" the reader by have it be someone that nobody would expect, someone that simply wouldn't and couldn't have done it. Completely unsatisfying in every way.

    And THIS was what led DC to their grimdark age? This is what led to Geoff Johns (who worked with Meltzer on the story by the way) fracturing the Justice League in his pinnacle-of-mediocrity Infinite Crisis so that Meltzer could "build them back up" in his god-awful JLA run? This overwrought hatefest of a story? The fact that Meltzer had the hubris to do all this crap without any care of repercussions or meaning makes me glad for every day he continues to not write superhero comics.

    But what disgusts me the most is people who try to frame this as some kind of "love letter" to comic books. By spewing this kind of filth you're doing nothing but aiding Meltzer in destroying what makes superhero comics so great.

  3. #108
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    if you're someone that doesn't particularly care for....let's say Game of Thrones lite adult content or seinen manga adult content than you'd probably not enjoy this story.

    If you regularly read such stories and/or can handle that subject matter in a way that doesn't distract from the story than you'll probably enjoy this. I only bring this up because its an integral part of the story.

    Outside of that piece this is probably one of DC's more daring stories they've ever done and really shakes things up. I'd say pick it up. Not sure if you'll enjoy it or not, but it has some historic context. I think its interesting to see what people think of it now at the time it was pretty well received. I also think its interesting to juxtapose this to Batman comics especially the iconic ones that people still rave about. The Killing Joke and the Dark Knight Returns, which while hav enormous critical acclaim probably aren't as loved as DC thinks they are with say mainstream (moviegoing populace size) audiences.
    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  4. #109
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    if you're someone that doesn't particularly care for....let's say Game of Thrones lite adult content or seinen manga adult content than you'd probably not enjoy this story.
    I love that kind of content, but that doesn't mean I want it mucking up the JLA. There's a time and a place...

    Plus the story doesn't even make sense.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  5. #110
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I love that kind of content, but that doesn't mean I want it mucking up the JLA. There's a time and a place...

    Plus the story doesn't even make sense.
    I'm just trying to give an example of the plot spoiling anything. Graphic adult content and themes basically. Truthfully its only one scene.

    I understand that sentiment. However, some people really like this story. I remember years ago when I posted on other forums people raved about this. Heck even people at DC once spoke about this in pretty grand fashion. I don't remember if it was Didio or Winnick, but someone was pretty big on it.

    I haven't read the story in years, but if I recall correctly, the whole point of the comic was the moral quandary the heroes find themselves in after "the incident" happens and how they react towards one another moving forward.
    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    I agree with batmanjones

    I think this board has its detractors, but again there many fans of the book who do not post here.

    Itís a riveting comic, with great art. Unless you are big time Ralph and Sue fans.
    I'm an enormous Ralph and Sue fan. That had a lot to do with why I loved it so much. There's never been another story that went so deep with their love for one another.

  7. #112
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    It's been ages since I read it, but I recall it being very bad. The pointless and cliche fridging of Sue is the major reason why, as is making all the JL members who mindwiped Bats into assholes. I believe Zatanna was the youngest of that group, so all these adult men (plus Dinah) pressuring her into doing that and then having her catch most of the heat for it always rubbed me the wrong way. Everyone getting hit with the stupid stick while fighting Deathstroke is another source of contention, and Dr. Light will now forevermore more be relegated to "rapist."

    It's not, IMO, an adult story using Silver Age elements. It seems more like a teenager trying to seem edgy and adult by throwing out adult subject matter, but not really having any maturity or depth in the execution. The mystery is also lousy, which is not good for a story for which "mystery" is the main genre.

    But ultimately, somebody should read this and form their own opinion. I'd recommend getting it from the library or something before forking over money on it though, and decide from there.

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    This is nonsense.
    And this is rude. Anytime someone replies to one of my posts by beginning with anything akin to "This is nonsense" gets a one-way ticket to my ignore list and why would I read the rest of your post when you opened with a blatant, personal insult? You take good care. I'll be missing the rest of your posts but I think it will improve my experience here immensely.

  9. #114
    Fantastic Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    This is nonsense. Identity Crisis is a garbage fire of a comic and arguably the worst Justice League story ever written.

    Meltzer put more effort into inciting agony and heartbreak and corrupting Silver Age stories than he does crafting a good plot...ALL he wants is that reaction. He painstakingly scripts a brutal rape scene that takes place in Sue's past, and not only does it end up having ZERO consequence beyond branding Dr. Light forever a serial rapist, but it's never shown to have any effect on Sue whatsoever. Meltzer puts this awful, AWFUL thing in her past and it's just treated as matter-of-fact with no intention of making any sense of it in regards to the history or context of the character. Sue was a victim in this story meant to shock the reader and nothing else. That's not to mention how before the rape scene we're quickly shown that Sue is suddenly pregnant RIGHT before she is brutally murdered. And we get to see Ralph holding the burnt husk of his dead wife as he beings to lose form. It was grotesque and heartless, using these characters as naught but a way to gain the readers' attention through shock value. Because nothing says "maturity" like rape and murder. How some were so easily fooled into thinking this was "heartfelt" is beyond me.

    And then we have Meltzer inserting into the Justice League's past the nefarious act of forcefully mindwiping their friend and teammate Batman. Not only that, but they spent YEARS without ever so much as attempting to tell him or make up for it, hell they never even put much thought towards it. They kept this dark betrayal a secret from even their loved ones. It was disgusting, and it's insane to me that Meltzer thinks the likes of Barry Allen could go through with this. Or that Zatanna would do that to her childhood friend. He proved countless times throughout Identity Crisis that he simply does not understand these characters at all.

    Oh and the whole murder plot, the entire reason the book exists? It doesn't even make sense. It was just another shameless attempt at "shocking" the reader by have it be someone that nobody would expect, someone that simply wouldn't and couldn't have done it. Completely unsatisfying in every way.

    And THIS was what led DC to their grimdark age? This is what led to Geoff Johns (who worked with Meltzer on the story by the way) fracturing the Justice League in his pinnacle-of-mediocrity Infinite Crisis so that Meltzer could "build them back up" in his god-awful JLA run? This overwrought hatefest of a story? The fact that Meltzer had the hubris to do all this crap without any care of repercussions or meaning makes me glad for every day he continues to not write superhero comics.

    But what disgusts me the most is people who try to frame this as some kind of "love letter" to comic books. By spewing this kind of filth you're doing nothing but aiding Meltzer in destroying what makes superhero comics so great.


    First off:
    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    But what disgusts me the most is people who try to frame this as some kind of "love letter" to comic books. By spewing this kind of filth you're doing nothing but aiding Meltzer in destroying what makes superherocomics so great.
    Have you read any recent superhero comics ? None are great anymore. It's far from Meltzer's fault.


    Second:
    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    And THIS was what led DC to their grimdark age? This is what led to Geoff Johns (who worked with Meltzer on the story by the way) fracturing the Justice League in his pinnacle-of-mediocrity Infinite Crisis so that Meltzer could "build them back up" in his god-awful JLA run? This overwrought hatefest of a story? The fact that Meltzer had the hubris to do all this crap without any care of repercussions or meaning makes me glad for every day he continues to not write superhero comics.
    I'm sad for you. Take off the stick you've got stuck in your behind ! You'll feel better. Shitting so hard on Meltzer and John's works while there are way way worse writers out there.

    Third:
    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    Oh and the whole murder plot, the entire reason the book exists? It doesn't even make sense. It was just another shameless attempt at "shocking" the reader by have it be someone that nobody would expect, someone that simply wouldn't and couldn't have done it. Completely unsatisfying in every way.
    Who cares if the book is fun to read ! Again have you read any recent superhero comics ? They make way less senses ! Do you know how to read and understand things ? Maybe you like nowadays simple stories that have no worked plots.

    Fourth:
    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    And then we have Meltzer inserting into the Justice League's past the nefarious act of forcefully mindwiping their friend and teammate Batman. Not only that, but they spent YEARS without ever so much as attempting to tell him or make up for it, hell they never even put much thought towards it. They kept this dark betrayal a secret from even their loved ones. It was disgusting, and it's insane to me that Meltzer thinks the likes of Barry Allen could go through with this. Or that Zatanna would do that to her childhood friend. He proved countless times throughout Identity Crisis that he simply does not understand these characters at all.
    You know in real life, it happens very often that people do unexpected things ! Like that friendly neighboor that killed his entire familly. Who could have guessed ? Or Kim shaking hands with Trump to agree on getting rid of all his nucleare weapons ! Who would have guessed ?

    Fifth:
    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    Meltzer put more effort into inciting agony and heartbreak and corrupting Silver Age stories than he does crafting a good plot...
    ... ??? Whatever dude. If at least you explained in what way he does that ! Unless you want to restore the Comics Code from silver age and get those soft puritan comics back.

    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    ALL he wants is that reaction. He painstakingly scripts a brutal rape scene that takes place in Sue's past, and not only does it end up having ZERO consequence beyond branding Dr. Light forever a serial rapist, but it's never shown to have any effect on Sue whatsoever. Meltzer puts this awful, AWFUL thing in her past and it's just treated as matter-of-fact with no intention of making any sense of it in regards to the history or context of the character. Sue was a victim in this story meant to shock the reader and nothing else. That's not to mention how before the rape scene we're quickly shown that Sue is suddenly pregnant RIGHT before she is brutally murdered. And we get to see Ralph holding the burnt husk of his dead wife as he beings to lose form. It was grotesque and heartless, using these characters as naught but a way to gain the readers' attention through shock value. Because nothing says "maturity" like rape and murder. How some were so easily fooled into thinking this was "heartfelt" is beyond me.
    I hope you don't drive a big fat car that polluts our atmosphere. I hope you are not a pro-gun person that don't care about murders. I hope you are not a fast food eater that don't care about people's health. I hope you are not a racist, anti-gay, religious extremist, or from any other pointless group.

    Sixth:
    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    This is nonsense. Identity Crisis is a garbage fire of a comic and arguably the worst Justice League story ever written.
    Well to be correct it's not a Justice League story. It's a crossover and got much more than just the Justice League in it. Maybe you should re-read it.
    Arguably we could also say it's one of the best crisis DC has put out. It's a matter of point of view.

    Finally:
    You are a very sad man. Learn to express your opinions with less hatred, with arguments and not cuss words.

  10. #115
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    First off:


    Have you read any recent superhero comics ? None are great anymore. It's far from Meltzer's fault.


    Second:


    I'm sad for you. Take off the stick you've got stuck in your behind ! You'll feel better. Shitting so hard on Meltzer and John's works while there are way way worse writers out there.

    Third:


    Who cares if the book is fun to read ! Again have you read any recent superhero comics ? They make way less senses ! Do you know how to read and understand things ? Maybe you like nowadays simple stories that have no worked plots.

    Fourth:


    You know in real life, it happens very often that people do unexpected things ! Like that friendly neighboor that killed his entire familly. Who could have guessed ? Or Kim shaking hands with Trump to agree on getting rid of all his nucleare weapons ! Who would have guessed ?

    Fifth:


    ... ??? Whatever dude. If at least you explained in what way he does that ! Unless you want to restore the Comics Code from silver age and get those soft puritan comics back.



    I hope you don't drive a big fat car that polluts our atmosphere. I hope you are not a pro-gun person that don't care about murders. I hope you are not a fast food eater that don't care about people's health. I hope you are not a racist, anti-gay, religious extremist, or from any other pointless group.

    Sixth:

    Well to be correct it's not a Justice League story. It's a crossover and got much more than just the Justice League in it. Maybe you should re-read it.
    Arguably we could also say it's one of the best crisis DC has put out. It's a matter of point of view.

    Finally:
    You are a very sad man. Learn to express your opinions with less hatred, with arguments and not cuss words.
    To every single last point you made: whataboutism is not an actual, valid defense for anything.

    You have made zero defenses for Identity Crisis, you've just repeated various variations of "But what about all this other shit?"
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
    - Gerhard Bronner

  11. #116
    Fantastic Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    To every single last point you made: whataboutism is not an actual, valid defense for anything.

    You have made zero defenses for Identity Crisis, you've just repeated various variations of "But what about all this other shit?"
    I was more pissed at how he talked in his post.
    Then every single last point I made are not "whataboutism" as you say. Did you read my entire post ?
    Then I never say "shit" ! So please re-read my post dude.
    Then If you like disrespectfull man such as CryNotWolf (because you didn't comment his post), good for you. But you would be as sad as he is.

    All I meant was Identity Crisis was captivating to read. Not the best story ever I agree. But nothing was as shoking and unbelievable as he sayd. And also not the worst "crisis" DC has put out.
    While lots of nowadays comics are not captivating at all (see multiple threads on current Batman, X-Men, Spider-Man, ...).
    Last edited by jb681131; 06-13-2018 at 02:50 AM.

  12. #117
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    The enjoyment of Identity Crisis depends greatly on how you feel about Ralph & Sue Dibny.
    It isn't TERRIBLE, but it really is the point where DC went down the 'dark & grim' path.
    As much as I LOVE Brad Meltzer, this one really was a miss for me.
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  13. #118
    non-super & non-hero jump's Avatar
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    If you ignore the rape and mystery you still have that badass Deathstroke scene.

  14. #119
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump View Post
    If you ignore the rape and mystery you still have that badass Deathstroke scene.
    That's one of the things a lot of people hate about it too and it never bothered me.

  15. #120
    Fantastic Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump View Post
    If you ignore the rape and mystery you still have that badass Deathstroke scene.
    You mean the scene where everyone forgot how to use their abilities and the character who is defined by willpower lost a battle of wills?

    The Deathstroke scene is classic jobbing on everyone's part and it makes Slade look like a chump who is luckier than he is smart. Sorry. The longer I read DC, the more I realize he should have lost that fight any six ways from Sunday and only won because, well, Meltzer wanted him to.

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