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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I don't find Diana to be a temptress so much as the notion that we the fans might unconsciously be agreeing with each other that ... Bruce might be tempt-able. You know ... I agree wholeheartedly - Diana is used in this story specifically as a temptation for Bruce, making her an object in a Batman story - but her character motivation is not "to tempt", though her story role is to "tempt Batman, somewhat, and probably subvert expectations". The title of the book is "Batman" after all, and the overall story arc "Super-Friends" is about BATMAN's relationships with his best friends. But more than that ... deep in our hearts we know that our boy, Bruce Wayne, is not a pillar of virtue. He's a noble guy, far less dark and grim at heart than the grim-dark fans and meta-grim-dark characters want him to be.

    But he doesn't have a very great track-record historically with women.

    Bruce had lovely parents. They always seem like solid people. But TEENAGE Bruce Wayne only had a male paternal role model figure in Alfred, no mother-figure. He's got the memory of his mom, but in his formative years, the "learning how to treat women with respect" years, you know ... just a weird old butler who himself has a baby-momma out there he doesn't talk to. Beyond that, we've seen, chronologically, that his relationships don't last. It's everything. It's the job. It's the isolation and anxiety. It's the childish quest taking precedence. It's the danger involved. Julie and Linda in the Golden Age. Vicki and Kathy in the Silver Age. Silver and Talia in the Bronze Age. Shondra and Vesper in the Dark Age. Who in the modern age? A slew of femme fatales, mostly who he was just sort of playing to get information from? Jezebel Jet? Mayor Hady's daughter? If Bats has a "ten year-ish career", he literally hasn't had a relationship last over a year except Catwoman who there for all of it, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Dark, Modern.

    Anyway, I've never shipped Batman and Wonder Woman. Because frankly I think Bruce is just plain too ... masculine, in that "possibility of toxic" way ... and Diana would never be attracted to that. Not that Batman isn't pretty self-aware, but like ... he's hyper-aggressive, he's got that alpha-alpha thing going on, he's bossy, I bet he Batmansplains the crap out of everything all the time. His ego is kind of massive. Noble or not ... I just can't see Diana ever being into that.
    action-comics-671-c.jpg
    action-comics-671-d.jpg
    One problem is that this has been done before in a Superman story.
    Now she's used the same way in a Batman story, as a proof of Sup/bat's loyalty to their girlfriends.
    In both stories she was rejected, at least it's always the male who pulled back first (and this time she has her own boyfriend)

    Seems this Object(WW) is so user friendly in this kind of situation, the writers much like using it
    I feel somewhat sorry for her though, Superman, then Batman,
    I just hope the Flash writers, Lantern writers, Aquaman writers, Cyborg writers won't use her like this in the future
    Last edited by anarki; 02-03-2018 at 02:21 AM.

  2. #47
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    The context here is that they have been battling endlessly for ten whole years with nobody else to turn to but each other. Frankly, even if they had done something, they wouldn't have been terrible people. Selina of all people would have definitely understood their predicament too and would have forgiven them easily.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    The context here is that they have been battling endlessly for ten whole years with nobody else to turn to but each other. Frankly, even if they had done something, they wouldn't have been terrible people. Selina of all people would have definitely understood their predicament too and would have forgiven them easily.
    These aren't your average Dick and Jane.

    Batman is the very symbol of self-discipline and stubborn will, even in the face of hopelessness. Wonder Woman is a creature borne of divinity, and as such is not really subject to the same base human needs (notice I say "needs" not "desires") as us. Not to mention 10 years isn't really that much to her relatively speaking. I mean she waited 1000 years before making any kind of serious move on Superman when they were in a similar situation.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryNotWolf View Post
    These aren't your average Dick and Jane.

    Batman is the very symbol of self-discipline and stubborn will, even in the face of hopelessness. Wonder Woman is a creature borne of divinity, and as such is not really subject to the same base human needs (notice I say "needs" not "desires") as us. Not to mention 10 years isn't really that much to her relatively speaking. I mean she waited 1000 years before making any kind of serious move on Superman when they were in a similar situation.
    Hence why they didn't do anything. Still though, they are allowed to show a more human side once in, in this case, actual 10 years.

    It's less the fact that they non-kissed than the fact that they spent 10 WHOLE YEARS in a pocket dimension fighting hordes non-stop and still won't be affected by it in any way that's more bothersome to me. In Diana's case, it can be shrugged off as her being a goddess immune to such "human frailties" (even though that reduces her depth as a character in the long run, far moreso than any kiss would have, and also contradictory to her emotional and mental vulnerabilities as established by Rucka for Rebirth itself), but King has been making effort as to how PTSD has been affecting Bruce. Surely fighting against hordes for an entire decade, away from his betrothed and other loved ones, has to affect him even when he returns to them. But I doubt it will be touched upon much in the future.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 02-03-2018 at 03:02 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Hence why they didn't do anything. Still though, they are allowed to show a more human side once in, in this case, actual 10 years.

    It's less the fact that they non-kissed than the fact that they spent 10 WHOLE YEARS in a pocket dimension fighting hordes non-stop and still won't be affected by it in any way that's more bothersome to me. In Diana's case, it can be shrugged off as her being a goddess immune to such "human frailties" (even though that reduces her depth as a character in the long run, far moreso than any kiss would have, and also contradictory to her emotional and mental vulnerabilities as established by Rucka for Rebirth itself), but King has been making effort as to how PTSD has been affecting Bruce. Surely fighting against hordes for an entire decade, away from his betrothed and other loved ones, has to affect him even when he returns to them. But I doubt it will be touched upon much in the future.
    I think one problem is that it's always Superman or Batman who pulled back first, then WW agreed (sha had to agree. by force?)
    so it's not very clear what was WW thinking at that moment (Although readers can make their own assumption)
    If They say "I can't" simultaneously, would be much much better.


    Another problem is Diana is the woman in big 3.
    B/S have so many classic stories together,
    when it comes to B/W or S/W--sex tension,comparing to B/S, lack development.

    Superman or Batman writers usually don't feel like inviting her, because Batman Superman have their own family
    when invited, it's in this kind of awkward situation, I think it's not cool
    Last edited by anarki; 02-03-2018 at 04:05 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by anarki View Post
    I think one problem is that it's always Superman or Batman who pulled back first, then WW agreed (sha had to agree. by force?)
    so it's not very clear what was WW thinking at that moment (Although readers can make their own assumption)
    If They say "I can't" simultaneously, would be much much better.


    Another problem is Diana is the woman in big 3.
    B/S have so many classic stories together,
    when it comes to B/W or S/W--sex tension,comparing to B/S, lack development.

    Superman or Batman writers usually don't feel like inviting her, because Batman Superman have their own family
    when invited, it's in this kind of awkward situation, I think it's not cool
    Dude there is no question this messed up and I'm baffled so many fans are missing the point or don't see the issue here but everyone's different I guess and we all find different things acceptable.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by anarki View Post
    I think one problem is that it's always Superman or Batman who pulled back first, then WW agreed (sha had to agree. by force?)
    so it's not very clear what was WW thinking at that moment (Although readers can make their own assumption)
    If They say "I can't" simultaneously, would be much much better.


    Another problem is Diana is the woman in big 3.
    B/S have so many classic stories together,
    when it comes to B/W or S/W--sex tension,comparing to B/S, lack development.

    Superman or Batman writers usually don't feel like inviting her, because Batman Superman have their own family
    when invited, it's in this kind of awkward situation, I think it's not cool
    I agree that in the larger sense when it comes to the history of WWxSupes or WWxBat stories, this is more of the problematic same. Though TBF, maybe every straight man (and woman with even the slightest of same sex attraction tendencies) would have a crush on a woman blessed with divine beauty by the Greek Goddess of Beauty, even Clark and Bruce who have significant others.

    I just think in this particular context, it doesn't seem as big a deal. It definitely is a valid issue that it is always the guy who pulls back, though I guess in this case Diana seemed to almost simultaneously realize it is ridiculous? Could it be that she momentarily thought Bruce was the one who needed it more? I mean, it was ten years after all and maybe they were beginning to lose hope of every returning home to their "true loves", so might as well make the most in the hellhole where they only had each other? I guess it just comes down to being able to give this instance the benefit of the doubt if you are able to divorce this interaction from the BrucexDiana and ClarkxDiana interactions that have preceded it.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 02-03-2018 at 06:10 AM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I agree that in the larger sense when it comes to the history of WWxSupes or WWxBat stories, this is more of the problematic same. Though TBF, maybe every straight man (and woman with even the slightest of same sex attraction tendencies) would have a crush on a woman blessed with divine beauty by the Greek Goddess of Beauty, even Clark and Bruce who have significant others.

    I just think in this particular context, it doesn't seem as big a deal. It definitely is a valid issue that it is always the guy who pulls back, though I guess in this case Diana seemed to almost simultaneously realize it is ridiculous? Could it be that she momentarily thought Bruce was the one who needed it more? I mean, it was ten years after all and maybe they were beginning to lose hope of every returning home to their "true loves", so might as well make the most in the hellhole where they only had each other? I guess it just comes down to being able to give this instance the benefit of the doubt if you are able to divorce this interaction from the BrucexDiana and ClarkxDiana interactions that have preceded it.
    quote: "it's not very clear", better make the situation more clear, as it may harm their image, that's my point

    and I happened to see this right before you post:
    QQ??20180203213256.jpg

    Edit: I posted the wrong pic, it's this one
    QQ??20180203215434.png
    Last edited by anarki; 02-03-2018 at 06:58 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by anarki View Post
    Edit: I posted the wrong pic, it's this one
    QQ??20180203215434.png
    It may not be Diana's need, but I did mention that maybe she thought Bruce was the one who needed it? And to be fair, Amazon philosophies regarding monogamy in a romantic relationship aren't clearly defined. Though obviously all of these vague aspects should be made very clear, especially Diana's perspectives on "free love" and monogamous relationships.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by anarki View Post
    I think one problem is that it's always Superman or Batman who pulled back first, then WW agreed (sha had to agree. by force?)
    so it's not very clear what was WW thinking at that moment (Although readers can make their own assumption)
    If They say "I can't" simultaneously, would be much much better.
    The problem is that this is poor writing. Instead of having good stories that increase the shippers fanbase, they choose to make a ridiculous situation and objectify a well-established character. SM and BM pull back first because the whole point of story was to elevate the relationship with their soon to be wife. Otherwise the impact would be less and if they cared for WW they wouldn't have done the story in first place. Regardless if the writers had moderated the situation as you suggested it doesn't change imo that this is a sign of disrespect to both readers and WW.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    It may not be Diana's need, but I did mention that maybe she thought Bruce was the one who needed it? And to be fair, Amazon philosophies regarding monogamy in a romantic relationship aren't clearly defined. Though obviously all of these vague aspects should be made very clear, especially Diana's perspectives on "free love" and monogamous relationships.
    As I said in #50 , "readers can make their own assumption", but it's just one of many possibilities (and no evidence)
    Common sense usually prevails
    It's not what you(or I) think it is. readers might misunderstand ( I've shown you some, there're more)
    Which could have been avoided easily ,but...
    And recently many haters harassing Liam Sharp who has been working on a new Bat/WW Team-up book(mini),

    I sincerely hope one day B/W (and S/W) could be as developed as B/S.
    still very far off
    Last edited by anarki; 02-04-2018 at 06:07 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lwx View Post
    The problem is that this is poor writing. Instead of having good stories that increase the shippers fanbase, they choose to make a ridiculous situation and objectify a well-established character. SM and BM pull back first because the whole point of story was to elevate the relationship with their soon to be wife. Otherwise the impact would be less and if they cared for WW they wouldn't have done the story in first place. Regardless if the writers had moderated the situation as you suggested it doesn't change imo that this is a sign of disrespect to both readers and WW.
    You're probably right.
    But Batman is DC's best-seller, bat family sells more than other JL big 6 combind. (and Superman the 2nd popular)
    That's why Batman writers have the liberty to use other heroes as a tool in BM stories. (ex. batman vs Justice League, multiple times)

    Actually I think it's OK if not badly written, it's OK if WW writers can also use BM or SM or even the whole JL as an object to promote her own image, in her own book.
    But...the problem is her books sell much less……her readers are not as important as Batman or Superman readers.
    So I agree better avoid these kind of stories, otherwise give her more chances to shine, hopefully
    Last edited by anarki; 02-04-2018 at 06:15 AM.

  13. #58
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    Welp, this was just as predictable as expected. Didn't comment much about the frikking cliffhanger from last chapter because it was pretty obvious that it wasn't going to happen and thus it doesn't offer much surprise although makes me realize how much I hate that Diana keeps being used just as a romantic interest whenever she appears with a male superhero. In fact the best scenes from this dynamic is when King focuses on how well they work as partners instead (Diana's kangaroo, Jumpa, being mentioned was nice too). The romantic scenes about The Gentle Man were solidly done but still suffer from the classic King awkward dialogue and leads to a pretty unsatisfying and anticlimactic ending (then again, King's run, what else did you expect?).

    Jones' art continues to shine though, she draws one of the most beautiful Diana I've ever seen. Aside from that, rather unremarkable.

  14. #59
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    Just wait 'till you check out JL#38

  15. #60
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    I've just read JL #38. And had this big WTF moment. So random, poor selina.

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