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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Good stuff.

  2. #17
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    In some ways I find her to be darker than Batman. And of course I approve.
    How so? Or are you talking about the Morrison version?
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  3. #18
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Me neither, and I would like to see more possible backstory to that. I would like to see how Kathy/Luka's connection to Bruce's uncle played out and how those relationships really work. Uncle or great Uncle.

    Other things: How does Betty/e's involvement with Kathy, perhaps at the time of some of this stuff going on, effect anything? I think Bette's short (compressed timeline could suggest it was "that one summer" when Betty came to Gotham and became the first Bat-Girl.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Ooops, I'm talking about current Batwoman.

    It would only be Morrison's retcon that makes Kathy potentially darker; Nazi-era father, etc. But I would like to see more if there is more to see, of course.

    Morrison had Kathy at about 10 years older than Bruce in their romance-time. I find that also a refreshing look at relationships that may seem to have power/balance differentials. Kathy (according to Morrison), may have been playing Bruce a lot more than he knew. (or not?)

  5. #20
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Me neither, and I would like to see more possible backstory to that. I would like to see how Kathy/Luka's connection to Bruce's uncle played out and how those relationships really work. Uncle or great Uncle.

    Other things: How does Betty/e's involvement with Kathy, perhaps at the time of some of this stuff going on, effect anything? I think Bette's short (compressed timeline could suggest it was "that one summer" when Betty came to Gotham and became the first Bat-Girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Ooops, I'm talking about current Batwoman.

    It would only be Morrison's retcon that makes Kathy potentially darker; Nazi-era father, etc. But I would like to see more if there is more to see, of course.

    Morrison had Kathy at about 10 years older than Bruce in their romance-time. I find that also a refreshing look at relationships that may seem to have power/balance differentials. Kathy (according to Morrison), may have been playing Bruce a lot more than he knew. (or not?)
    Ah, that makes more sense.

    I think the problem with Morrison's retcon in terms of further stories about Kathy/Katerina/Luka Netz is:

    1) Morrison wrote the Kathy sections of Batman Inc. #4 in a weird faux Old Timey way, with "Old Chum" style dialogue and plotting that leans more towards the drug-soaked end of his RIP worldbuilding. Few writers working today seem to be interested in writing Batman or Gotham in that manner - see Sam Humphries' recent flashback to Nightwing's past as Robin, with art by the classic master Klaus Janson. Today's writers at DC will do a little bit of tweaking to make it seem like it's in a more distant past - but some of them won't. Tynion in Tec Annual #1, showing Clayface's origin probably at least 7-10 years ago, when Batman was pretty much brand new, doesn't play any kind of dialogue games. He does a little bit of societal change to show that it's in the past, but mostly he writes everyone the same in the past as in the present. Rucka did something similar in his own backstory to Kate Kane in Batwoman: Go (Elegy's second half).

    2) Because Kathy's story was handled by three separate writers, none of whom seemed to have been working very closely with each other at all (indeed, Grayson seemed to pick up on stuff that was over a year after Batman Inc #13 and Morrison had stopped really doing anything in mainstream DC continuity), it's incredibly hard to see her arc as having any real trajectory. It's constant retcons - something that's so much harder when Morrison's first introduction of her in Batman Inc #4 was itself a massive retcon.

    3) Kate Kane herself - she's very popular, and I don't think DC is even interested in soliciting stories about her. I'm betting that King and Seeley had to push to get permission to use Luka/Katerina in Grayson at all.
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  6. #21
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Wait wait wait. The original Batwoman also had a sister named Elisabeth? Just with an s and not a z? I never caught that until now.
    Well, as far as I know, I don't think that ever became a "thing" until after the Grant Morrison updated-retcon version of "Kathy" was introduced. (And offhand, I don't know if back in the pre-Kate days if Betty/Bette's parents were ever named or if any explanations were made on how specifically she was related to Bruce or to original Kathy beyond being "aunt"-and-"niece". Some people even refer to people as "aunt" and "niece" even if they aren't technically first-generation related.)

  7. #22
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Well, as far as I know, I don't think that ever became a "thing" until after the Grant Morrison updated-retcon version of "Kathy" was introduced. (And offhand, I don't know if back in the pre-Kate days if Betty/Bette's parents were ever named or if any explanations were made on how specifically she was related to Bruce or to original Kathy beyond being "aunt"-and-"niece". Some people even refer to people as "aunt" and "niece" even if they aren't technically first-generation related.)
    Or if they are actually cousins but there is a significant age difference.

    Also, for those of us who might wish to explore the original apperances of Kathy, is there a handy reading list?
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  8. #23
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Also, for those of us who might wish to explore the original apperances of Kathy, is there a handy reading list?
    Have you tried the GCD (www.comics.org)?

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    A very good analysis!

    I think you are right, especially in respect to 1). As you know I don't really read Batman much, so I rely on my memories of when I did; mostly a while back. But those are good points about the diffs in writers and how they handle verbiage, expository or not.

    2), well, I mostly didn't read Grayson, and darn I should have, if only to see more Kathy.

    3) Yes, I wouldn't want complete stories or arcs on Kathy. I like the small clues or revelations if appropriate. My only interest now in such a flashback or retcon, would be to see how it dealt/s with and the placement of Bette.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Yes, this.

    I like the vagueness of Bette or Kate possibly being 2nd cousins or at least 1st but once or twice removed (I know .... all too technical)

    Some fan wanking on mine or other's part suggests that a 'Phillip Kane' (who may have been a Wayne, previously) is the father.

    I of course have my own ideas, which I shall not dredge up again at this time.

    Of course the Mrs. Kane is something that I've not speculated on myself, nor do I believe has been covered in any story?

    In my perfect Bat-family world, Kate and Bette would be 2nd cousins (at least) to Bruce. So this implies that they all are the children of first cousins.

    Jacob would be a first cousin to Martha. But stories in the last year or so clearly show Jacob as being Martha's brother, so we don't got that. (unless . . . they were cousins who were raised and thought of themselves as siblings . . . . *** something that has actually happened in my family a couple of gens ago, so not impossible, especially for wealthy people covering up certain indescretions perhaps ?)

  11. #26
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Have you tried the GCD (www.comics.org)?
    Well, I was thinking that a list by a fan might have some commentary on best issues and such. Maybe putting it in the first entry so that any new Kathy Kane fans/interested parties would be able to instantly find stuff and maybe become a fan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post

    A very good analysis!

    I think you are right, especially in respect to 1). As you know I don't really read Batman much, so I rely on my memories of when I did; mostly a while back. But those are good points about the diffs in writers and how they handle verbiage, expository or not.

    2), well, I mostly didn't read Grayson, and darn I should have, if only to see more Kathy.

    3) Yes, I wouldn't want complete stories or arcs on Kathy. I like the small clues or revelations if appropriate. My only interest now in such a flashback or retcon, would be to see how it dealt/s with and the placement of Bette.
    Grayson was an excellent comic. Highly recommended.

    Well, naturally you would want to see how Bette fits into Kathy's life. I myself would love to find out if Bette and Kathy fit into the Grayson/Morrison scheme.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Ah, that makes more sense.

    I think the problem with Morrison's retcon in terms of further stories about Kathy/Katerina/Luka Netz is:

    1) Morrison wrote the Kathy sections of Batman Inc. #4 in a weird faux Old Timey way, with "Old Chum" style dialogue and plotting that leans more towards the drug-soaked end of his RIP worldbuilding. Few writers working today seem to be interested in writing Batman or Gotham in that manner - see Sam Humphries' recent flashback to Nightwing's past as Robin, with art by the classic master Klaus Janson. Today's writers at DC will do a little bit of tweaking to make it seem like it's in a more distant past - but some of them won't. Tynion in Tec Annual #1, showing Clayface's origin probably at least 7-10 years ago, when Batman was pretty much brand new, doesn't play any kind of dialogue games. He does a little bit of societal change to show that it's in the past, but mostly he writes everyone the same in the past as in the present. Rucka did something similar in his own backstory to Kate Kane in Batwoman: Go (Elegy's second half).

    2) Because Kathy's story was handled by three separate writers, none of whom seemed to have been working very closely with each other at all (indeed, Grayson seemed to pick up on stuff that was over a year after Batman Inc #13 and Morrison had stopped really doing anything in mainstream DC continuity), it's incredibly hard to see her arc as having any real trajectory. It's constant retcons - something that's so much harder when Morrison's first introduction of her in Batman Inc #4 was itself a massive retcon.

    3) Kate Kane herself - she's very popular, and I don't think DC is even interested in soliciting stories about her. I'm betting that King and Seeley had to push to get permission to use Luka/Katerina in Grayson at all.
    It's kind of intriguing to me that retcons are as big a part of her character now as you know, aliases and manipulation and double-agent status. I'm not saying it's a good narrative story-arc trajectory, being a living representation of those "unreliable narrator" type concepts, but it is a good high-concept. King and Seeley's plot definitely had "character developments" and peeled back a bit of the mystery that Morrison achieved, by letting us get to know Otto better, introducing us to her twin sister (itself a bag of not-coincidence, because hey look, Kate Kane ALSO has a twin sister antagonist), and by letting us see that 1. She's been keeping tabs on Bruce & Co. for a LONG time and 2. She's exactly the type who would just shoot Talia in the head to solve the problem and 3. She's like the greatest spy in the DCU, even getting the James Bond "Skyfall" style "death scene" that is obviously not really a death scene. Of course, using Grayson himself to resolve that storyline was both good and bad - good because yeah, Dick Grayson, Super-Spy, was the guy to make Otto's "I take over your body" plot look like some amateur crap. But apart from a tangle in Bruce Wayne's living room, they never really put Dick on the same page as Kathy, so we never really got that Silver Age reunion. She circles around - she directly interacted in Incorporated with Beryl, Johnny and Jason Todd - Dick and Tim did show up - but like, she definitely skirts around the edges, BARELY interacting with Dick or Bruce. She didn't get to be the crux or the resolver of her own evil-Nazi-father family problem. She beat Elisabeth in the skirmish but we don't really know if it was for personal or brainwashy or double-agenty reasons, and then Netz ... by way of Helena's finely honed body ... gets the drop on her. (Helena Bertinelli didn't get to interact with Agent Zero either - that would be a fascinating comparison).

    She's definitely an Aquarius.

    So they've used her as story fodder but haven't given her that much agency in her own story except to be ruthless enough to cut some loose ends. Which works for the glimpses/cameo woman secretly protecting the whole Batman and whole superhero-by-proximity community from the shadows, keeping the spymasters off their trail ... but doesn't work for you know ... bringing her back in a bigger supporting role.

    Still she's pretty fascinating in modern continuity and a character I'd like to see something done with. And when I say "something done with", I don't mean getting passed around a bunch of weird secondary titles now that the big Spyral whammies in Bruce and Dick's books are done. Like ... there's a case it would be interesting to see her turn up in Birds of Prey and interact with Helena and Babs and Dinah. There's a case where it would be interesting to see her turn up in Detective and interact with Kate, Steph and Cass. But that's like ... diminishing returns. And you know, after that she'd turn up in like, The Silencer or Suicide Squad or some even fringier book and just be a shallow husk of an appearance with no story or agency anymore. Just an empty foil for Honor Guest or Amanda Waller or something.

    I'll take it back a smidge - I could really get behind a four-part Detective/BOP crossover where she interacts with Helena, Kate, Babs, Cass, Steph, Jacob, and so forth, and has everyone so whammied or convinced that only like ... Dinah can really see through the bullshit. Where the proper Batgirls - Babs, Cass, Steph - actually face off against the Skull Girls. Where Bette Kane shows up. Maybe even Bette or Steph you know ... "Go with Kathy". Oooooh drama.

    That could be good but only if the story had a worthwhile premise and antagonist and lots of Spyrally art and dialogue mindgames.
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  13. #28
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    . . . 2), well, I mostly didn't read Grayson, and darn I should have, if only to see more Kathy.
    But that's only if you want more of the Morrison-inspired retconned-Kathy, who really doesn't seem to have any true connection to the original, pre-CoIE version of Kathy beyond mostly a name, a costume, and a travelling circus/carnival. (It's not even like Morrison decided to bring back the original Kathy and you just got a 21st century writing style vs. a 1950s/60s/70s writing style. He went much deeper with changes.)

  14. #29
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    K.Jones said: She's definitely an Aquarius.


    Which, as an Astrology buff myself - - is hilarious and oh so true! *Thanks*

    I like your ideas about how to bring her back, somewhat - or at least for an engaging story or two. There would be a certain delight in seeing Bette run into Kathy after all this time, of course. Not knowing Steph very much, but immediately liking the idea that maybe she and Bette could play 'bad' with Aunt Kathy also has a certain thrill to it.

    But of course it is really about giving her agency. Maybe when she gets hers, some can rub off on her niece, Bat-girl!

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Question

    I'm a tad confused, aren't Kathy and Kate (both Kane) essentially the same character just different interpretations?
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