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  1. #196
    Mighty Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    I want to know what makes Cyborg good repsentation for the physically disabled when he's physically more machine than human.

    Knowing that there have been recounts told by disabled individuals of little kids pointing to their prosthetic and saying " look a robot" or that they get stares or that they struggle with the prostetic not being as close to human looking as possible, why would a character who looks less human than humanly possible be good repsentation... b/c I'm finding it hard to see what makes Cyborg different from Sophia the Robot outside of the fact that one is essentially real and the other is a comic character with abilties.





    If Cyborg showed more flesh and was actually half man and half machine, I probably would not be questioning if he is good representation or not but he has the same amount of skin as an actual robot does.

    When does Cyborg stop being considered human and start being considered what he actually looks like i.e a robot.

    I guess that man vs machine storyline really is necessary...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You haven't kept up with the current comics have you? Vic isn't losing his skin.

    Also, why is the fact he's also being marketed to disabled people a problem? This feels like a strange complaint in general to have.
    Not his solo no, but he still only has one side of his face showing his blackness in the Justice League comics so my point still stands.

    And it's not about him being marketed to physically disabled people so much as it's an either or type of situation with DC.

    In comics him being a racial minority is what's benefiting the character, outside of comics, specifically in live action him being disabled is marketed, his racial minority status used to be acknowledged until that Justice League teaser trailer came out and then all talk seemed to be about physical disabilities, and the fact that he is a poc went straight out the window.

    In a perfect world Cyborg would be acknowledged as both a poc (specifically black) and disabled but he's not, so I'm gonna side eye DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    They've actually played up Vic as a disabled hero from the start. One of the early NTT issues had Vic hanging out with a group of kids who had all lost limbs, and they went nuts when they found out Vic was like them. A big part of the early Walker issues dealt with Vic's role as a disabled hero and how cybernetic prosthesis were getting more advanced and some people wanted to regulate the technology.

    So its not something DC is pulling out of nowhere.
    I already know this, although I did not know David Wlaker kind of revisted that ...but this is ultimately what the writers are doing and not what DC as a company is doing or pushing.

    As stated Cyborg is where he is b/c of his race, and when it was first revealed that Cyborg was getting his own movie, his race was acknowledged and his race kept being the only thing that was acknowledged from the company to the media outlets but then as soon as that Justice League teaser trailer hit, it changed and now it's only about what Cyborg represents for the physically disabled and what he represents racially is never brought up anymore or as often.

    So it's not about me thinking DC is pulling this out of their ass, but me thinking they're fake.
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  2. #197
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    I think Aztek should get a push. I think in a lot of ways he’s similar to Black Panther. Both characters play against stereotypes for their respective cultures. There are a number of black and Hispanic characters “from the streets” but both Black Panther and Aztek are the pinnacle of intelligence, technology, and wealth. Plus you don’t often get a character created by Grant Morrison and Mark Millar.
    I would go with the original character and concept.


  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    I want to know what makes Cyborg good repsentation for the physically disabled when he's physically more machine than human.
    Well, Ray Fisher has had disabled people come up to him and say the character he played really touched them. So there’s that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    When does Cyborg stop being considered human and start being considered what he actually looks like i.e a robot.
    We’ve seen what robots in the DCU look like. They tend not to look like Vic. Part human and part machine is still a cyborg.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    Not his solo no, but he still only has one side of his face showing his blackness in the Justice League comics so my point still stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    And it's not about him being marketed to physically disabled people so much as it's an either or type of situation with DC.
    How are they treating it as an either or situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    In comics him being a racial minority is what's benefiting the character, outside of comics, specifically in live action him being disabled is marketed, his racial minority status used to be acknowledged until that Justice League teaser trailer came out and then all talk seemed to be about physical disabilities, and the fact that he is a poc went straight out the window.
    Problems with the design aside, I fail to see how his racial minority status is any less acknowledged now. I certainly don’t remember when DC was all about Cyborg’s race before or after the movie came out.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I think Aztek should get a push. I think in a lot of ways he’s similar to Black Panther. Both characters play against stereotypes for their respective cultures. There are a number of black and Hispanic characters “from the streets” but both Black Panther and Aztek are the pinnacle of intelligence, technology, and wealth. Plus you don’t often get a character created by Grant Morrison and Mark Millar.
    I would go with the original character and concept.

    Eh, the original version seems to lean a bit into cultural appropriation territory by having a blonde white man naming himself after an American Indigenous group. Maybe have the character be a Mexican Indigenous person. Maybe a woman for intersectionality.

  5. #200
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    As someone how isn't really into Green Lantern I would like to big are John's (and Guy's) role in that franchise actually? I had the impression that at least in comics Hal was the main protagonist of the franchise till the early 90s, than Kyle became the main Lantern and with Green Lantern Rebirth it was Hal again. While the others were mostly replacements in case Hal slip in the shower (like Justice League of America #110 ).

  6. #201
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Eh, the original version seems to lean a bit into cultural appropriation territory by having a blonde white man naming himself after an American Indigenous group. Maybe have the character be a Mexican Indigenous person. Maybe a woman for intersectionality.
    I agree make him be idigenous but intersectionality and female?
    No, that ends up too often a tool to keep non-white male heroes out. It is far more palpable to have a female and not a male of another race to the forces that keep minorities out. Make it a female and its just one more of Batman's Conquests. Absolutely not.
    "...There are some lies that lodge so deep in the hopes of man that they can never be killed no many how many are
    executed to make the lie true..." -On Communism; Gerard Vanderleun

  7. #202
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    Considering Aztek... The character (well, a successor) has returned in the current JLA. D.C. greenlighted her, so they could as well push her more now.

  8. #203
    Amazing Member wafle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    America Chavez is a good character that was written terribly in her solo series. She's not the best recent example of Marvel diversity, but that's besides the point.


    1)America isn't the richest country in the world, we're just the most influential at the moment. We're trillions of dollars in debt!
    Still the most powerfull richest nation in the world, there is a reason why everyone wants to immigrate to Europe or America.

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    2)You do realize colorism and basically the caste system is still alive and well in Latin America right? So why do you get upset when racism and prejudice/oppression is addressed? At least Americans address our social issues, Latin American counties like to pretend everything is fine and sweep them under the rug.
    Yes there is colorism... ON Mexican TV!, which i stopped watching 12 years ago when i discover everything i wanted was on the internet, i even manage to learn a foreign lenguage on it and change my view to become more tolerant in others, so i don't miss Mexican tv one bit, that said, i won't deny colorism. But you see, unlike Americans, we go by the real priviledge, the Money, the Power, not the other demographics. Youtube has shown a true reflection of Mexicans, we come in all skins, and we work on Class, a rich brown junior (we call them "lords and ladys" look on youtube so you can see all type of people act like) has waaay more priviledge than a poor white in Mexico, everyone know's that.

    I don't oppose diversity, i just want it to feel realistic, natural, unlike marvel. Even if there is no Eagle Warrior or Super Tlatoani, im fine with it, im reading American comics afterall, if i wanted Mexican comics about Mexican heroes i would read Mexican comics, unfortunately there are not as many opportunities to be a creator in spanish as there is in english, you see, richest country in the world vs latin america & Spain and Richest country in the world still wins in it's people acquisition power (meaning the market is bigger). You want the diversity of Americas and that's fine, at least be honest about it, otherwise you wouldn't need the hated Spanglish or the characters to be defined by their demographics so much, that is very unrealistic outside of the U.S. people in here are not defined by what they are.

    Let me put it another way... i read the harry potter series, something i really enjoy about it is that they never killed any of my favorite heroes Harry, Hermione, or Ron, imagine if they would have killed them just so that someone from a different demographic could take their place, just because someone in the richest country in the world complain about not feeling represented enough, uggh just thinking about it makes me naseus. you see i was invested in the characters, as a fan i would hate if in the 6th book Harry who liked Cho and now is starting to look at Ginny, harry sexuality was suddenly flip over, im one of the few who don't judge others based on Sexuality in my Machista nation, and i still get my calls of homophobe from Americans for saying that. I argue that if you really want diversity those attitudes of just replacing fan favorites are counterproductive, and the backlash they are creating is helping the most hated person in Mexico, your president, so yes i often speak against it, i use to speak more about it, until the milkshake debacle, then i kept it mostly quiet, but it never stopped bothering me, and if people wants DC to start's pulling a Marvel it would really piss me off so i will speak about it.

    To be fair, we do have Socialize medicine and Education and that might be why we focus so much on class and not skin color, because in theory people have the same opportunities, in practice we realize is the money people who get the best opportunities.

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post

    3)Just because a Latino is from the USA doesn't mean they're rich or privileged. Often times its quite the opposite. Also, Spanglish is just something that developed because kids were being taught in English at school and talked to in Spanish at home.
    Spanglish is the worst thing you can do to anyone living in Latin America or Spain, again Spanglish is one of the biggest evidence that the diversity of Comics it's for the American's benefit, no one else like's the mixture of languages.

    And they might not all be rich according to your standard's but according to mine winning in Dollars and not in Pesos is a big benefit, ffs your minium wage pays for an hour what hours pay for a day, so many of the complains about representation from the people who move in to the US feels hollow and non representive of the whole, they are the selected few who one way or another ended up in the richest country in the world, those that demand representation are just like the Lords and Ladys(of those you find in youtube) demanding more privilege when they have a lot.




    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    You do realize that Damian has non White ancestry right? Assuming Ras is White, he's 1/8 Arab, 1/8 Chinese, and 1/4 Jewish (some people consider Jews non White but I don't know). He should be darker than Bruce, Dick, Tim and the others and racially ambiguous, but some artists forget that. Also look up Aramis Knight, he's basically a live action Damian Wayne.
    Yes i realize that i am a fan afterall, yet he was first colored with certain skin color, changing that skin color would feel fake, especially if they change it to a skin color that neither mother, father, nor grandfather share.

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    You do realize Marvel has higher sales than DC right? Its been that way for a good while now.
    I check every month for sales, and you are right, marvel is selling more, except they were also publishing more, and what do you know, just last month DC publish more and they sold more, also if you look at the passage of time you will see a trend in Marvel, and tend downwards, shared by most of the industry yes, but in marvel? waaay more pronounced, but i understand if you haven't seen that, confirmation bias does keep people from looking at information they would disagree with.
    Last edited by wafle; 02-13-2018 at 09:30 AM.
    El Sr. Sombrero, big fan of Damian Wayne, and DC rebirth as a whole.
    Refugee from the mass Marvel exodus (started dropping books around 2014, until Hickman Left in 2015, at which point the was nothing there for me.)

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I agree make him be indigenous but internationalist and female?
    No, that ends up too often a tool to keep non-white male heroes out.
    Like when? Not saying it's easy street for men of color, but I see them getting promoted more than women of color.


    It is far more palpable to have a female and not a male of another race to the forces that keep minorities out. Make it a female and its just one more of Batman's Conquests. Absolutely not.
    Don't recall Batman showing any interest in Vixen or Dr. Light (Kimiyo Hoshi) when he served on a team with them. The only women outside of his franchise he's expressed interest in are Wonder Woman and Zatanna.

  10. #205

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    It's similar to how Green Arrow and WW have villains but none of them have the staying power of Batman or Flash's. It's not that they don't have villains (check wikipedia they have tons) it's more they aren't consistently used so they don't have a foothold.

    So it's not that DC or Marvel doesn't have minority leads they aren't just pushed as much as the white heroes nor given the same amount of chances. Like at Marvel: Blade doesn't get the same amount of chances as the Punisher or Moon Knight. There could be a million and one other reasons why that is but Marvel's not forthcoming so it becomes what we can surmise.

    Another thing is the legacy system is a half measure and could be done better. YJ had the right idea with Bumblebee and the Atom so I rather they do more of that than just making more Atoms/Robins/Lanterns etc. Duke for all his faults had the right idea in becoming the signal and Gotham's daytime protector etc. He's not perfect by any means but there is a lot you could learn from how he was brought in (ms.marvel did it better tho).
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 02-13-2018 at 10:39 AM.

  11. #206
    Mighty Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I think Aztek should get a push. I think in a lot of ways he’s similar to Black Panther. Both characters play against stereotypes for their respective cultures. There are a number of black and Hispanic characters “from the streets” but both Black Panther and Aztek are the pinnacle of intelligence, technology, and wealth. Plus you don’t often get a character created by Grant Morrison and Mark Millar.
    I would go with the original character and concept.

    Steve Orlando made the hero Azteck a legacy, now there is a woman behind the mask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well, Ray Fisher has had disabled people come up to him and say the character he played really touched them. So there’s that.
    That doesn't erase what I said, cause there have been twitter threads and tumblr posts by people who are physically disabled who have expressed their feelings on Cyborg in a negative way, just like there are black people who think Cyborg is great repsentation when really he's ...*shrug*

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    We’ve seen what robots in the DCU look like. They tend not to look like Vic. Part human and part machine is still a cyborg.
    I've never seen or rather came across a robotic character in all the DC Comics I've read, so after Sophia the Robot was introduced to us all, Vic' s character kept reminding me of her.

    And as you said a Cyborg is part human and part machine, but that's not what he looks like in comics or in live action, he looks like the black male version of Sophia the robot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How are they treating it as an either or situation?
    Representation A = race Representation B = disabilities

    DC acknowledged representation A and never once acknowledged representation B, after the Justice League teaser trailer convo slowed, I would say as soon as Zack Snyder said what he said about Cyborg being good repsentation for the physically disabled then talk of Cyborg became about representation B, and representation A was swept away.

    That's what makes it an either or situation b/c not once has Cyborg being a dual minority been acknowledged only one aspect at a time.

    And now that I broke it down even further, I know why.

    And for those people who still wonder whether or not DC comics is gonna use the Cyborg movie to combat Black Panther, the answer is no b/c the narrative around Cyborg has changed, he went from being 'the poc/black superhero' movie that could could potentially come out first (not really) to 'one of the poc/black superhero movies that would be coming out' to 'the first disabled superhero led live action movie'. So basically the marketing and the hype would be focusing on how he is a disabled hero and what that means like how the marketing around Black Panther is about him being a black hero etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Problems with the design aside, I fail to see how his racial minority status is any less acknowledged now. I certainly don’t remember when DC was all about Cyborg’s race before or after the movie came out.
    I'm sorry that you don't have that memory but I do remember b/c of how Marvel responded and I've seen significant decline in acknowledgment in that area.
    Last edited by kurenai24; 02-13-2018 at 08:48 PM.
    My priority is black female characters; everything else is secondary.

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    Comics: Y: The Last Man, Justice League America (2009), Ultimate Comics: All New Spider-Man (2011)
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  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    That doesn't erase what I said, cause there have been twitter threads and tumblr posts by people who are physically disabled who have expressed their feelings on Cyborg in a negative way, just like there are black people who think Cyborg is great repsentation when really he's ...*shrug*
    What is good representation is going to vary from person to person. You asked what made Victor good representation for the disabled and I pointed out one reason why.




    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    Representation A = race Representation B = disabilities

    DC acknowledged representation A and never once acknowledged representation B, after the Justice League teaser trailer convo slowed, I would say as soon as Zack Snyder said what he said about Cyborg being good repsentation for the physically disabled then talk of Cyborg became about representation B, and representation A was swept away.

    That's what makes it an either or situation b/c not once has Cyborg being a dual minority been acknowledged only one aspect at a time.

    And now that I broke it down even further, I know why.

    And for those people who still wonder whether or not DC comics is gonna use the Cyborg movie to combat Black Panther, the answer is no b/c the narrative around Cyborg has changed, he went from being 'the poc/black superhero' movie that could could potentially come out first (not really) to 'one of the poc/black superhero movies that would be coming out' to 'the first disabled superhero led live action movie'. So basically the marketing and the hype would be focusing on how he is a disabled hero and what that means like how the marketing around Black Panther is about him being a black hero etc.



    I'm sorry that you don't have that memory but I do remember b/c of how Marvel responded and I've seen significant decline in acknowledgment in that area.
    Weird, I think I remember sure fans made more of a deal of Cyborg’s race than DC did. I should also point out that them not talking about his race much does not mean it isn’t important for black people. After all, Blade wasn’t marketed on his race.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 02-13-2018 at 12:50 PM.

  13. #208
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Eh, the original version seems to lean a bit into cultural appropriation territory by having a blonde white man naming himself after an American Indigenous group. Maybe have the character be a Mexican Indigenous person. Maybe a woman for intersectionality.
    He should definitely be an actual Mexican. I always hated the fact that he was a blond white guy.

    My only issue with making Aztek a woman is that it seems like most times when Hollywood or pop culture in general use a Hispanic or Asian characters they make them female. You can count all the mainstream Hispanic and Asian male actors on one hand. I don’t know, maybe they consider a male Hispanic too threatening to the general public. 9 times out of ten the Hispanic or Asian female is used as an “exotic” love interest to the white male.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    He should definitely be an actual Mexican. I always hated the fact that he was a blond white guy.

    My only issue with making Aztek a woman is that it seems like most times when Hollywood or pop culture in general use a Hispanic or Asian characters they make them female.
    *Scratches head* Really?

    Just from DC alone, you've got Jaime Reyes, Cisco Ramon and Bane who get the lion's share of adaptation appearances over their female counterparts. Renee Montoya has only one live action appearance to her name and one appearance in an animated series. Lorena Marquez hasn't been seen since she was booted off the Titans.

    For Asians, you have Ryan Choi in Injustice and Amadeus Cho in Ultimate Spider-Man. Cass Cain has yet to appear in any movies or tv shows.

  15. #210
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    *Scratches head* Really?

    Just from DC alone, you've got Jaime Reyes, Cisco Ramon and Bane who get the lion's share of adaptation appearances over their female counterparts. Renee Montoya has only one live action appearance to her name and one appearance in an animated series. Lorena Marquez hasn't been seen since she was booted off the Titans.

    For Asians, you have Ryan Choi in Injustice and Amadeus Cho in Ultimate Spider-Man. Cass Cain has yet to appear in any movies or tv shows.
    Wasn't Renee Montoya a character created for the animated series and then made the jump to the comic books, like Harley Quinn and Livewire did?

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