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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    DC is too afraid to pull the trigger
    Black Lightning
    Bronze Tiger
    Thunder
    Lightning
    Static
    Icon

    All these characters could have been pushed and pushed to the moon or at least not gone into periods of limbo
    Instead they just went with the generic one at a time philosophy and that's how you ended up with cyborg's failed Justice League run
    At least with Static and Icon there is the problem that DC doesn't own these characters, and has afaik to pay to use them low selling books with them even less lucrative.

  2. #227

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    It's crazy. A man who is living technology, should be one of the greatest characters of our time.

    Everyone on this board is using technology right now. We have smart devices attached to us nearly at all times. And we all prioritize our tech appearing "attractive".

    Why is the concept of Cyborg so difficult for these DC writers? They all have stories for a guy who runs around at night with pointy ears and a growl, but nothing for living technology. Not a machine. Technology.
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  3. #228
    Fantastic Member JamJams's Avatar
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    My objective observation: It comes down to the decision making from the people in charge. Fans of both Marvel and DC both like to think their opinions matter and that if they vote with their wallets then the companies will have to bend to their wills. But both Marvel and DC are owned by billion dollar mega-corporations so they are free to do whatever they want in regards to their decision making in what characters do/do not get pushed. The characters themselves are never in danger. If everyone hates Sam as Nova or Wally being black but DC/Marvel want to promote those two characters. They will be promoted. If the books don't sell the only thing that gets affected by the sales are the writer/artist in charge of the comic for not doing a good enough job to make it a seller. So they will get fired and they find someone else to write/draw the comic instead.

    So if there's a problem with DC not letting any minority character succeed you'd need to look at Dan DiDio and ask him why he wants to exclude those heroes from being in the spotlight.

    My personal observations: They don't bother promoting books. For example the creative team writing Batwing for Luke Fox was great, the art was above average as well but it never got any promotion so I doubt anyone knew it existed and the ones who did had no idea what it was about or why they should care to read it. BUT that's another hurdle they have to get over that actually does have to do with characters: DC is pretty much the Batman show so the lack of promotion effects EVERYONE. Batman is their golden goose and then you have Superman who you keep around because he's the first superhero and every few years he has a milestone that pops up they can exploit and Wonder Woman is their oldest woman character so they can exploit her every once and a while as well. Then you have everyone else and they don't really care enough about them which hurts the minority characters the most because they are never considered the 'legacy' heroes. Like despite the fact that Jon Stewart was -the- Green Lantern to a lot of people due to the JL cartoon DC will always promote Hal first because they believe him to be the 'better' Lantern due to being 'first' (even though he was second).
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  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    DC doesn't go "all in" enough. Killing Bruce Banner, Wolverine and Tony Stark, making Jane Foster the unquestioned star of Thor, etc... Letting other people take their spot (not be a sidekick or additional person with the name) is the kind of thing that can be done and work to advance a character. Marvel doesn't always do that (there's a Spider-Man, Wasp, Falcon, Ghost Rider, etc minority character who still have the original around), but at least they do it sometimes.

    DC should take the "if you can't be better, be different" approach more often with how they handle minority heroes. By that I mean characters like Duke, Jessica Cruz, Cass Cain and Simon Baz are just thrown into a white character's supporting cast. There are so many Bat-Associates and Green Lanterns that they get lost in the shuffle. DC won't let them be better than Batman or Hal Jordan, so at least let them be different. Take them away from the established heroes and don't make them so dependent on them for character advancement and stories.
    Kong Kenan is a good example of being different. DC would never let Kong be the "main" Superman, so they at least let him be different. They gave him an identity and world very separate from Superman.
    Oh I agree, the amount of effect Marvel put into pushing their diverse characters into success completely dwarfs DC's attempts. I'm not disagreeing with that. But what I am saying is that with the effort that DC does push into does lead to lack of success.

    The problem is that at the moment, only Marvel has found the formula. The only way for a diverse character to succeed currently is for them to replace their A class counterpart, build up a fanbase, bring back the classic character, have them share the mantle, repeat. For some reason, that appears to be the only way to get new characters to work.

    I mean look at all that crap DC said about creating new characters, surrounded by the biggest names in DC's wheelhouse, and yet their sales are no where near the sales when Marvel released their legacy character solo series. So all of this "talk" about introducing new characters as a way to be successful is just that, talk. It's stupid for DC to think that if New characters would sale, that they wouldn't go down that route instead of the legacy route. I mean before ANAD, DC was the legacy publisher, not Marvel.
    But Marvel made the sacrifices needed to get successful books out there, now we have a miles morales movie coming out in the end of the year where DC could only hope to get something like that.

  5. #230
    Mighty Member krazijoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Oh I agree, the amount of effect Marvel put into pushing their diverse characters into success completely dwarfs DC's attempts. I'm not disagreeing with that. But what I am saying is that with the effort that DC does push into does lead to lack of success.

    The problem is that at the moment, only Marvel has found the formula. The only way for a diverse character to succeed currently is for them to replace their A class counterpart, build up a fanbase, bring back the classic character, have them share the mantle, repeat. For some reason, that appears to be the only way to get new characters to work.

    I mean look at all that crap DC said about creating new characters, surrounded by the biggest names in DC's wheelhouse, and yet their sales are no where near the sales when Marvel released their legacy character solo series. So all of this "talk" about introducing new characters as a way to be successful is just that, talk. It's stupid for DC to think that if New characters would sale, that they wouldn't go down that route instead of the legacy route. I mean before ANAD, DC was the legacy publisher, not Marvel.
    But Marvel made the sacrifices needed to get successful books out there, now we have a miles morales movie coming out in the end of the year where DC could only hope to get something like that.
    So the African American Kid Flash is not DC???

  6. #231
    Astonishing Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamJams View Post
    Like despite the fact that Jon Stewart was -the- Green Lantern to a lot of people due to the JL cartoon DC will always promote Hal first because they believe him to be the 'better' Lantern due to being 'first' (even though he was second).
    One problem with that is few of those people looked beyond the show to take interest in the comics. And this was back when DC actually did decide to promote John Stewart in a more prominent fashion due to his role in the cartoon. In the early 2000s when Hal was still "dead" and despite that Kyle was technically still the main GL in the comics, John was made the public face of the GL franchise. DC brought him back as GL in the comics again and put him in the Justice League all because of that show, he didn't have Hal "holding him back" then, yet it didn't exactly set the DC world on fire. I loved the DCAU and John's role in JL/JLU but that show hardly defines the GL mythos or its characters. DC obviously could've done much more with John than they ended up doing, but I think it goes beyond the fact that they brought Hal back, I believe DC never really had the intention of pushing John to the moon the way they did with Hal or even with Kyle when he took over in the 90s. Even if Hal was never brought back, they would've probably ended up relaunching the Kyle book and John would've had more or less the same role that he ended up having. Judging by their history, John Stewart never seemed to be a character that DC ever thought very highly of.
    Last edited by Johnny; 02-14-2018 at 06:39 PM.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    Oh I agree, the amount of effect Marvel put into pushing their diverse characters into success completely dwarfs DC's attempts. I'm not disagreeing with that. But what I am saying is that with the effort that DC does push into does lead to lack of success.

    The problem is that at the moment, only Marvel has found the formula. The only way for a diverse character to succeed currently is for them to replace their A class counterpart, build up a fanbase, bring back the classic character, have them share the mantle, repeat. For some reason, that appears to be the only way to get new characters to work.

    I mean look at all that crap DC said about creating new characters, surrounded by the biggest names in DC's wheelhouse, and yet their sales are no where near the sales when Marvel released their legacy character solo series. So all of this "talk" about introducing new characters as a way to be successful is just that, talk. It's stupid for DC to think that if New characters would sale, that they wouldn't go down that route instead of the legacy route. I mean before ANAD, DC was the legacy publisher, not Marvel.
    But Marvel made the sacrifices needed to get successful books out there, now we have a miles morales movie coming out in the end of the year where DC could only hope to get something like that.
    Which of the Marvels new characters are still around now post legacy (and are all the old ones back)?

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    One problem with that is few of those people looked beyond the show to take interest in the comics.
    Thats often a problem, I mean just look the characters from the Marvel-Netflix series. Appart from maybe Dare Devil, non of their books sells, despite the huge success they had on Netflix.

  9. #234
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    The only thing I can say to this is that Daredevil and Hawkeye are great repsenation for the blind and hearing impaired and it helps that they look human.

    In regards to Cyborg, I wish he looked human b/c no person with prosthetics looks less than human, in comparison to Daredevil and Hawkeye, Cyborg lacks the basic humanity to look like the people he is suppose to represent but thank you for your feedback.
    There's some serious irony here that we're discussing representation and your hangup is that you don't like the way Vic looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    DC is too afraid to pull the trigger
    Black Lightning
    Bronze Tiger
    Thunder
    Lightning
    Static
    Icon
    Well, Icon and Static aren't DC characters. I'm not sure about the details at all but didn't DC's issues with Isabella cause troubles with using Black Lightning, and by extension his kids?

    And no one has ever given a damn about Bronze Tiger and probably never will.

    However, there's no such excuse for characters like John Stewart, Steel, Vixen, Vibe, or Dr. Light (the hero, not the villain).
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  10. #235
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    One problem with that is few of those people looked beyond the show to take interest in the comics. And this was back when DC actually did decide to promote John Stewart in a more prominent fashion due to his role in cartoon. In the early 2000s when Hal was still "dead" and despite that Kyle was technically still the main GL in the comics, John was made the public face of the GL franchise. DC brought him back as GL in the comics again and put him in the Justice League all because of that show, he didn't have Hal "holding him back" then, yet it didn't exactly set the DC world on fire. I loved the DCAU and John's role in JL/JLU but that show hardly defines the GL mythos or its characters. DC obviously could've done much more with John than they ended up doing, but I think it goes beyond the fact that they brought Hal back, I believe DC never really had the intention of pushing John to the moon the way they did with Hal or even with Kyle when he took over in the 90s. Even if Hal was never brought back, they would've probably ended up relaunching the Kyle book and John would've had more or less the same role that he ended up having. Judging by their history, John Stewart never seemed to be a character that DC ever thought very highly of.
    John Stewart is a victim of bad timing. Had the GL movie been in the works when the JL/JLU cartoon was still on the air in first-run form, he would have been the star of the film instead of Hal. Not that it would have been any better or worse with him in it, of course, but it still would have given his name recognition and popularity a nice boost.
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  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Lightning View Post
    Why is the concept of Cyborg so difficult for these DC writers? They all have stories for a guy who runs around at night with pointy ears and a growl, but nothing for living technology. Not a machine. Technology.
    Because advanced tech is basically magic and you fall into the same problems writers do when you write magic characters. So he ends up being the super plot-devicey one. (And is often under-utilized and taken out because he'd ruin the plot, or over utilized to the point where he basically becomes the magic solution)

    From a personality standpoint, he has regressed and Cyborg fans have to watch him deal with the same things he's already dealt with. But I would say the same is true for Dick, Donna, Roy, etc.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    DC doesn't go "all in" enough. Killing Bruce Banner, Wolverine and Tony Stark, making Jane Foster the unquestioned star of Thor, etc... Letting other people take their spot (not be a sidekick or additional person with the name) is the kind of thing that can be done and work to advance a character. Marvel doesn't always do that (there's a Spider-Man, Wasp, Falcon, Ghost Rider, etc minority character who still have the original around), but at least they do it sometimes.

    DC should take the "if you can't be better, be different" approach more often with how they handle minority heroes. By that I mean characters like Duke, Jessica Cruz, Cass Cain and Simon Baz are just thrown into a white character's supporting cast. There are so many Bat-Associates and Green Lanterns that they get lost in the shuffle. DC won't let them be better than Batman or Hal Jordan, so at least let them be different. Take them away from the established heroes and don't make them so dependent on them for character advancement and stories.
    Kong Kenan is a good example of being different. DC would never let Kong be the "main" Superman, so they at least let him be different. They gave him an identity and world very separate from Superman.
    This, the fact that the DC audience skews a little more conservative, and the lack of access on the part of store owners seems to be the Big 3 reasons why DC has trouble promoting its POC characters. Stop keeping those characters in the shadow of more established white heroes and find different avenues to bring them to a rapidly diversifying readership and DC/Marvel can do a better job at uplifting non-white characters. Hell, that's a good idea to get new heroes period, but I definitely think characters of color have the most to gain from that type of approach.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Which of the Marvels new characters are still around now post legacy (and are all the old ones back)?
    Aside from Nighthawk and Nightbrand-everyone else is pretty much around to some degree.

    And if we count outside of comics-Flint & Quake are on Marvel's Shield.


    One problem with that is few of those people looked beyond the show to take interest in the comics.
    They take interest in the trades as those are easier to find versus hunting down a comic book store where you pray you don't meet Simpsons Comic book guy who is rude to you.

    That is IF what you see on tv or in the movie even has stuff out. The Young Justice & Static Shock do no good if they have no comics in stock.


    So the African American Kid Flash is not DC???
    He is the POSTER CHILD of what NOT to do and if he was a Marvel guy-you would seen more backlash to him than all of the POC of Marvel.

    OG Wally got tossed away to force you to like Barry and then the excuse of that tv show required a new Wally to be black. Then unlike his white counterpart-black Wally got introduced in the classic stereotypical way of getting arrested and having daddy issues.

    And he is constantly written as either needing a white savior or being Damain Wayne's bytch in Titans (and YES one of the early promo books for Rebirth described him as that). Add on the horrible actor playing him on tv and you get a character many don't like.

    If they wanted a black Kid Flash-XS from Legion was around as was Peek A Boo from Johns's run.


    DC doesn't go "all in" enough. Killing Bruce Banner, Wolverine and Tony Stark, making Jane Foster the unquestioned star of Thor, etc... Letting other people take their spot (not be a sidekick or additional person with the name) is the kind of thing that can be done and work to advance a character.
    MARVEL has done that crap for YEARS and LOL at all the folks who claim to be long time readers who forget that.

    James Rhodey replaced Tony TWICE for what amount to 40 issues. And that lead to him getting the War Machine armor, a mini and an ongoing.

    US Agent replaced Steve for 30+ issues and he went on to West Coast Avengers, minis and so on.

    Erik Masterson replaced Thor and became Thunderstrike for his own series before his death.

    And how many of Peter Parker's outfits became other folks? Hello Venom, Spider-Man 2099, Ben Riley, May Parker, Miles and the Slingers.

    Did we not see a Ms Thing replaced Ben Grimm in FF?

    Was there not a black Cap Marvel?

    How many Ghostriders have we seen before the hated Robbie Reyes? 3?

    How many Hulks do we have now? Yet everyone HATES Cho but not She Hulk, Red She Hulk or Ross Hulk in Miles Morales's book now.

  14. #239
    Astonishing Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    John Stewart is a victim of bad timing. Had the GL movie been in the works when the JL/JLU cartoon was still on the air in first-run form, he would have been the star of the film instead of Hal. Not that it would have been any better or worse with him in it, of course, but it still would have given his name recognition and popularity a nice boost.
    In some ways it turned out for the better, because it wasn't John Stewart's character that was tarnished because of that movie. If/when John makes his movie debut people would think of his acclaimed role in the show. When they see Hal again, they would think of Ryan Reynolds.
    Last edited by Johnny; 02-14-2018 at 04:15 PM.

  15. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    DC is too afraid to pull the trigger
    Black Lightning
    Bronze Tiger
    Thunder
    Lightning
    Static
    Icon

    All these characters could have been pushed and pushed to the moon or at least not gone into periods of limbo
    Instead they just went with the generic one at a time philosophy and that's how you ended up with cyborg's failed Justice League run
    The funny thing is that you would expect Bronze Tiger to be used more considering he literally beat Batman. I wouldn't put it past DC current writers to retcon that fight anytime soon.

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