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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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  2. #2
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Kate does what has to be done. To me, this actually means, she overcame the traumas of her past - mostly - and became what she needed to be.

    Bruce may not need to be that - or a part of him can never overcome the trauma the way Kate has.

  3. #3
    SON OF BATMAN adrikito's Avatar
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    Cass is experiencing something similar to Batman when he losed Jason Todd for the Joker... But she is only one adolescent.. Poor..

    I like Steph design here..

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    Cass is with the Outsiders. Waiting for one comic with Steph.

  4. #4
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Well, this all seems pretty good as a follow up. I hope that all of the characters get their moments.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  5. #5
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Yep. Knew Batman would go off on Kate. Especially when she used a gun to kill him. I don't think the death sticks though. It would be easy to bring him back.
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  6. #6
    Mighty Member WontonGirl's Avatar
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    That's bull****! No way that death sticks. I'm calling it now!

    I just don't believe it. Nah...

    Yeah and Kate IS that CHICK. She will always do what SHE thinks needs to be done. Now whether it's what needed to be done or in what way is debatable.

  7. #7
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Yep. Knew Batman would go off on Kate. Especially when she used a gun to kill him. I don't think the death sticks though. It would be easy to bring him back.
    I mean, I think Clayface will absolutely come back. I just don't think it will be in Tynion's run, or within the next year. BUT I thought the same thing about Lincoln March, and I was super wrong about that. UGH. I hate Robin War so much for spitting on Batman Eternal.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  8. #8
    Incredible Member Katana500's Avatar
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    Kate doesnt seem very sad that someone she has been on a team with just died. I get the whole justify the ends thing but pretty cold!

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana500 View Post
    Kate doesnt seem very sad that someone she has been on a team with just died. I get the whole justify the ends thing but pretty cold!
    Well, she's not happy, either.
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  10. #10
    Mighty Member WhipWhirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana500 View Post
    Kate doesnt seem very sad that someone she has been on a team with just died. I get the whole justify the ends thing but pretty cold!
    Kate's too military to get emotional like that. As Caivu said she's not happy, but from her perspective she is still "on mission".
    Last edited by WhipWhirlwind; 02-08-2018 at 04:48 PM.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhipWhirlwind View Post
    Kate's too military to get emotional like that. As Caivu said she's not happy, but from her perspective she is still "on mission".
    Exactly. She didn't break down when Tim "died" or when Luke and JPV got impaled and captured, for pretty much the same reasons.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  12. #12
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    It's a neat story note but the trick is going to be in the execution. If Bruce & Co. try to pull the whole moral high ground angle I'm gonna be like, YEAH, Bruce, you've literally given Jason Todd a "just not when you're in Gotham" pass when it comes to executing criminals. YEAH, Bruce, it got to be a life and death situation and your 13 year old little boy KILLED Nobody. KILLED Doctor Dedalus. And hell, it wasn't even remotely life or death and Damian KILLED The Spook. Batman has lots of friends he doesn't give a hard time about having to make the hard choice of lethality, and Kate is military, not some weird zen "it's okay if I break all the bones as long as nobody dies" weirdo. Not only that but his fiancee is probably going to have a more nuanced look at it, and hopefully gets him thinking more about it in a way that's not so black and white.

    Which isn't me disagreeing with how rad Batman's "no kill policy" is, it's just like, me thinking Batman's policy is you know ... HIS policy. Not hers. Or even anyone else's. His Justice buds are all generally like trying every heroic option to make sure that nobody dies ... but they come up against "kill or be killed" or "kill or a lot of people die" all the time and definitely don't make stretch themselves to the breaking point like Batman does when it comes to fretting about the decision to use lethal means.

    And further, Kate isn't one of Batman's pupils, she's a peer. So like ... preachy-preachy ain't gonna work - though the argument will be there that she chose to adopt his "flag" before she even knew he was Bruce, and she and her dad definitely were pretty strictly using the "Batman No Kill Rule" as standard operating procedure. (ALTHOUGH it's totally telling now that Jake founding The Colony and wanting her in was total foreshadowing for this happening. Much like Batman's unmasking in the first issue is also foreshadowing for the important fact that they're peers and she's on his level. In fact, a LOT of this run up to this point has been leading up to this logically.)

    Anyway, I'm sure we'll get some proper cliche, moral speechifying and platitudes from this story beat - my hope is that Tynion really subverts expectations and takes those "oh noes Batman doesn't like killing" just utterly derivative cliches and does something different with them. That said - when it comes to future solicit materials and stuff like this, if there's a rift in the team along the lines of a justifiable kill, it does make total sense to me that Jean-Paul of all people would side with Kate. I mean, that bit is just plain obvious. So I guess I'm more curious about Luke's thoughts on the subject. As a numbers and statistics guy I suppose he might find it just to be the most efficient thing. And I gotta say, once Clayface goes full Kaiju and thousands of people are going to die ... I don't think I disagree with Kate, either.

    So for me the ideal story beat is going to be that Tim in particular, and Cass because she liked Clayface and killed once and abhors killing because of it, are going to be hardcore No Kill Policy preachers here, really echoing their mentor ... but I actually hope to see Bruce be more sophisticated and really be torn. Not like, "personally wounded" from it, just torn. Definitely more pensive and introspective about it, and weirdly less preachy, while it's his proteges that are really going nuts with the judgmental behavior. In the Robin camp itself I'd say you know, Jason obviously is going to be like "yeah, she made the right call", Damian will fall in that line but indicate that he prefers now to find a different solution, Tim will be the hardcore Batman Rule guy, and Dick will have a more nuanced take on it like Bruce does, but will also fall in the "I wish you could have found a different way" camp.

    Someone like Babs wouldn't like it but might understand it - for her, not you know, just assassinating the Joker or something, seems like adherence to idealism or some kind of self-discipline. Helena on the other hand will just be like "yup. You made the right call." Dinah I'm not sure. Dinah's a Big League superhero so she might always see crazy ways to solve monster situations with minimal damage. Bette ... I'm not sure where Bette will fall because we're not sure where she's at in her life in general right now!

    Other Bat-Family members that aren't "distant relatives?" Alfred has defended Wayne Manor with a shotgun before, and you don't see Bruce judging him. Self-defense and all that. Gordon? Won't like that it's a vigilante doing a killing - should've turned that weapon over to a cop and let them make the call.

    Steph I'm really curious about. No clue where she might fall. I tend to think, because I'm still rolling with the BQM idealist Steph, she'll be right there with Tim.

    So thinking out loud, or in text-form, aside, I guess I think that it's possible to do interesting things with this storyline, but am cautious in that regard, because lots of stories like this turn really, really boilerplate/cliche/derivative, very, very fast.
    Last edited by K. Jones; 02-08-2018 at 09:16 PM.
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  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    It's a neat story note but the trick is going to be in the execution. If Bruce & Co. try to pull the whole moral high ground angle I'm gonna be like, YEAH, Bruce, you've literally given Jason Todd a "just not when you're in Gotham" pass when it comes to executing criminals. YEAH, Bruce, it got to be a life and death situation and your 13 year old little boy KILLED Nobody. KILLED Doctor Dedalus. And hell, it wasn't even remotely life or death and Damian KILLED The Spook. Batman has lots of friends he doesn't give a hard time about having to make the hard choice of lethality, and Kate is military, not some weird zen "it's okay if I break all the bones as long as nobody dies" weirdo. Not only that but his fiancee is probably going to have a more nuanced look at it, and hopefully gets him thinking more about it in a way that's not so black and white.
    Not to mention Bruce himself almost put a knife through Riddler's face. In the best case, that's no different from what Kate did here: justifiable homicide, killing to prevent more death. I really want that addressed, but unless Selina's involved, I don't know how it could be. All of this needs to be addressed, actually. Why is it okay for some and not others?

    There's another element that could come into play: Julia Pennyworth. Part of what Batman specifically tasked her with on her mission with Kate was reporting on her, including if she ever killed. And Kate suspects this. So it's not like this is something totally out of left field for Bruce.

    And further, Kate isn't one of Batman's pupils, she's a peer. So like ... preachy-preachy ain't gonna work - though the argument will be there that she chose to adopt his "flag" before she even knew he was Bruce, and she and her dad definitely were pretty strictly using the "Batman No Kill Rule" as standard operating procedure.
    This is where I think the bulk of the conflict is going to come from. It is her Bat... but it's still a Bat. And you wear a Bat in Gotham, you don't kill. Legally and morally, she's in the clear. So this is probably going to be more of a "fit for service" sort of thing.

    So for me the ideal story beat is going to be that Tim in particular, and Cass because she liked Clayface and killed once and abhors killing because of it, are going to be hardcore No Kill Policy preachers here, really echoing their mentor ... but I actually hope to see Bruce be more sophisticated and really be torn. Not like, "personally wounded" from it, just torn.
    I would actually love it if the reason he's being harder on her is because she's family, but then that gets into the problem of Damian, like you mentioned.

    Someone like Babs wouldn't like it but might understand it - for her, not you know, just assassinating the Joker or something, seems like adherence to idealism or some kind of self-discipline. Helena on the other hand will just be like "yup. You made the right call." Dinah I'm not sure. Dinah's a Big League superhero so she might always see crazy ways to solve monster situations with minimal damage. Bette ... I'm not sure where Bette will fall because we're not sure where she's at in her life in general right now!
    Babs struggled a bit with this very thing early in the New 52, and she's the daughter of a cop, and likes Kate, so I agree there. Same with Helena, and Dinah being more of a wildcard. Bette's interesting. She looks up to Kate a great deal, and is training for the Army... but only as a stepping stone for vigilante work.

    Other Bat-Family members that aren't "distant relatives?" Alfred has defended Wayne Manor with a shotgun before, and you don't see Bruce judging him. Self-defense and all that. Gordon? Won't like that it's a vigilante doing a killing - should've turned that weapon over to a cop and let them make the call.

    Steph I'm really curious about. No clue where she might fall. I tend to think, because I'm still rolling with the BQM idealist Steph, she'll be right there with Tim.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by Caivu; 02-08-2018 at 09:59 PM.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  14. #14
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    There are certain things about Kate that might mark her as cold in her dealings with people that maybe she shouldn't be so cold with. It is actually a thing I like about her, the vulnerability from having such serious trauma happen to her over her life.
    I often felt she was pretty cold and harsh when she tried to train her cousin Bette, who by all accounts "adored" Kate (big sister she never had?).

    If you're old enough you may have read or saw the movie based on "The Yearling", some literary prize winner as well as feted movie too, from the '40s I believe. The mother of the young boy who takes the baby deer in, cannot get emotionally close to this child and is harsh (its also poor Southern folks/times).

    Later it is explained that all her previous children had died young and she didn't/couldn't get attached to the boy; she feared if she loved him, she would lose him too.

    Kate is sorta like that to me. Not so much with Jacob of course, and all of that is merited.

    BTW, I tend to let the comics batch up for me; I no longer live very near the comic store that has faithfully pulled them for me, for many years; so I'm behind on the last 2 issues at least.

    But they're always worth waiting for.
    ** I came for Batwoman, but I stayed for Bette **

  15. #15
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Thanks for a definitely astute summation of the situation.

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