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  1. #1
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    Default Has the Super Saiyan Blue been retconned

    I mean looking throughout all of Dragon Ball Super post Resurrection F saga. They seem to have retconned the god forms, into not being nearly as big a leap forward as they were originally portrayed.

    Goku and Vegeta's base forms being more powerful than their pre-god ki, ssj forms has been quietly ignored. Future Trunks' SSJ1 and 2 forms was depicted as being on par with Goku and Vegeta's.

    Gohan after regaining his Ultimate form is able to give SSJB Goku a decent fight (with nothing else in the story suggesting that his Ultimate form was any stronger), the fusion of two girls who hadn't reached SSJ3, produced a fighter on par with SSJB Goku.

    If these were isolated incidents it could be be ignored as pis, but this seems to have been a pretty consistent portrayal, from the Zamasu arc onwards.

    So is it just me or is the later half of Super quality retconning, the power of SSJB into being less than what was originally intended.

  2. #2
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Not really.

    It's more like everyone else has gotten stronger which is what happens in just about every new arc of Dragon Ball.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Not really.

    It's more like everyone else has gotten stronger which is what happens in just about every new arc of Dragon Ball.
    I don't know about that, they make a big deal about how Gohan is weaker than hi Buu arc self and even at that point Goku has go SSJ to match SSJ Gohan in a sparring match. Later Gohan fights Goku, immediately after regaining his Ultimate form and holds his own. So either Ultimate Gohan (and by proxy Super Buu and DBZ era Vegito) has been retconned into being a lot stronger, or it seems like SSJB Goku had been retconned into being weaker.

  4. #4
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastDalek View Post
    I don't know about that, they make a big deal about how Gohan is weaker than hi Buu arc self and even at that point Goku has go SSJ to match SSJ Gohan in a sparring match. Later Gohan fights Goku, immediately after regaining his Ultimate form and holds his own. So either Ultimate Gohan (and by proxy Super Buu and DBZ era Vegito) has been retconned into being a lot stronger, or it seems like SSJB Goku had been retconned into being weaker.
    Considering that this is the tournament where the world of void shakes multiple times, Android 18 hangs in a black hole, then Toppo turns the world of cloudy nothingness into the world full of stars, it'd be the latter.

    But really, it's just that Gohan is stronger now. The guy has been training a lot behind the scenes with Piccolo. One of the Trio de Dangers manages to give Buu a workout even before the fruit comes into play. Gohan fights the other sibling in base form and only needs SSJ because poison. Naturally, when he unlocks Mystic again, it's stronger than he originally was. Gohan's main problem in Super is not that he has gotten super weak, but that he genuinely has a hard time transforming because he hasn't fought in so long.

    Like, when he fights Tagoma he says the guy is as strong as he was at his best. He manages to fight him once he relearns how to go SSJ, not even SSJ2 at that.

    And even then SSJB Goku is still stronger. Before the tournament, Goku in base form fights Fit Buu pretty casually, then fights the Trio de Dangers all at once and only needs SSJ because their teamwork is that good.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastDalek View Post
    the fusion of two girls who hadn't reached SSJ3, produced a fighter on par with SSJB Goku
    Kale alone was able to repeatedly overpower Super Saiyan God Goku while taking zero damage from his attacks (and walked through a Kamehameha from Blue, but people like to pretend he was sandbagging for some reason).

    "Not having reached SSJ3" is utterly meaningless. Vegeta hasn't reached SSJ3 either.

    Kale has ridiculous potential and a different transformation line from other Saiyans, Caulifla is a genius at drawing out power and learning techniques, combining both together results in someone who constantly escalates in power. Thus, Kefla.

    Incidentally, Kefla didn't 'match' SSB Goku. Within a few moments of existing she'd scaled way past his Kaiokenx20 form.
    Last edited by Siriel; 02-12-2018 at 01:20 PM.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Kale alone was able to repeatedly overpower Super Saiyan God Goku while taking zero damage from his attacks (and walked through a Kamehameha from Blue, but people like to pretend he was sandbagging for some reason).

    "Not having reached SSJ3" is utterly meaningless. Vegeta hasn't reached SSJ3 either.

    Kale has ridiculous potential and a different transformation line from other Saiyans, Caulifla is a genius at drawing out power and learning techniques, combining both together results in someone who constantly escalates in power. Thus, Kefla.

    Incidentally, Kefla didn't 'match' SSB Goku. Within a few moments of existing she'd scaled way past his Kaiokenx20 form.
    Yeah. I think the big fallacy here is thinking that SSJ/SSG/SSB etc are set achievements of hard powerlevels, rather than depending on the strength of the base form. That is, just because one can turn Super Saiyan 2 doesn't mean they're stronger than the opponent who can only go Super Saiyan 1. It really depends on what's multiplied by their respective Super Saiyan states.

    One of the more recent examples I could think of was the fight against Beerus. SSJ3 Goku couldn't lay a finger on Beerus. SSJ2 Vegeta fared much better (even if it didn't do much against Beerus). It means that Vegeta's levels spiked to a point above SSJ3 Goku, not that one's SSJ3 is automatically stronger than another's SSJ2. It was the same against the Cell Jrs, where the normally stronger SSJ Goku (who at normal could stalemate Cell) was getting beaten worse than the weaker SSJ Vegeta (who couldn't), simply because Goku was exhausted and his powerlevels hadn't recovered yet.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Dragon Ball is basically a case study for why we use feats on Rumbles instead of Calcs

  8. #8
    Mighty Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Kale alone was able to repeatedly overpower Super Saiyan God Goku while taking zero damage from his attacks (and walked through a Kamehameha from Blue, but people like to pretend he was sandbagging for some reason).
    The reason being that SSG Goku walks through an energy attack from a Kale stronger than the beserk one, and shows the ability to handle her (easily overpowering another of her blasts). If Kale really was SSB tier she would have kicked the shit out of god Goku but didn't.

  9. #9
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    Comments about Kale's strength after getting control of her power seemed to be pretty hyperbolous. She was clearly putting out far less power than she did when berserk.
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  10. #10
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Comments about Kale's strength after getting control of her power seemed to be pretty hyperbolous. She was clearly putting out far less power than she did when berserk.
    Which makes sense since she's not berserk anymore. Kale very clearly seems to be lowering herself to Caulifla's level so they can fight together.

  11. #11
    Is it in yet? BitVyper's Avatar
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    Honestly, for the time being, I'm inclined to pretend berserk Kale doesn't exist so far as any judgements of power go.
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  12. #12
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Which makes sense since she's not berserk anymore. Kale very clearly seems to be lowering herself to Caulifla's level so they can fight together.
    or at the very least keeping her power low enough that she doesn't lose her sanity and become a threat to everyone around him, caulifla included.

  13. #13
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Honestly, for the time being, I'm inclined to pretend berserk Kale doesn't exist so far as any judgements of power go.
    It's not really complicated. Berserk Kale goes all out from the start and forced Goku to go Blue. In control Kale may be potentially stronger but is holding back because she wants to fight with Caulifla. Notice how she is entirely unhurt by anything God Goku did while Caulifla is barely standing before fusing.

    Additionally, Goku has been steadily getting stronger throughout the tournament.

  14. #14
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    It's not really complicated. Berserk Kale goes all out from the start and forced Goku to go Blue. In control Kale may be potentially stronger but is holding back because she wants to fight with Caulifla. Notice how she is entirely unhurt by anything God Goku did while Caulifla is barely standing before fusing.

    Additionally, Goku has been steadily getting stronger throughout the tournament.
    seems to be that universe 6 saiyans, while lacking the bigger physiques, have impressive ki control. still impresses me the strides cabba, caulifla and kale have made in barely two days of training and combat.

  15. #15
    Mighty Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Comments about Kale's strength after getting control of her power seemed to be pretty hyperbolous. She was clearly putting out far less power than she did when berserk.
    Thats what i Thought at first, but now i figure her power as controlled beserker was just more controlled and contained and ssjb goku was holding back as usual.

    like zarbon vs vegeta had an equal or bigger effect on the environment than 17 vs piccolo yet either 17 or piccolo could casually swat aside zarbon like a gnat.

    or again its just toei being hilariously inconsistent with power levels lmao.

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