View Poll Results: Could Shang Chi have been a better Iron Fist than Danny Rand?

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  • Yes, of course.

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  • No way, jose.

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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    but what if he's a better fighter than Lei Kung?
    As an adult he wouldn't be allowed to take the trials so Lei kung wouldn't care. Even thought Danny and Orson were outsiders they were still children raised in the monasteries of K'un L'un.

    Technically Wendell was allowed as a teenager but that was because Lei Kung recognized Orson's teachings.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 02-13-2018 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    As an adult he wouldn't be allowed to take the trials so Lei kung wouldn't care. Even thought Danny and Orson were outsiders they were still children raised in the monasteries of K'un L'un.

    Technically Wendell was allowed as a teenager but that was because Lei Kung recognized Orson's teachings.
    theoretically, he'd recognize Shang Chi's teachings, as well. he has no doubt incorporated what he's learned sparring with Danny. I'm not even sure what the difference between kung fu and Kunlun style really is. the Immortal Weapons seem to have a wide variety of styles and weaponry.
    Last edited by Michael Watkins; 02-13-2018 at 05:29 PM.
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  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    Nope, you'd just be swapping white saviour trope for Asians are all super martial artists trope.

    Better to stick with what's there and established, then swap to appease one set of people and yet piss off another at the same time.

    Asian people need more representation, but they also need to have their stereotypes cast off. And Shang = Fist would be a massive stereotype and people should feel bad for thinking it, as they're only thinking it works because of a raving and exploitative Hollywood stereotype.
    So having the Asian who's the best at martial arts take the role of a martial artist would be fitting the Asians are good at martial arts trope?

    Like, you're not wrong about Asians needing more varied representation. But Shang Chi is already the Asian martial artist trope. He's more than that, of course, but that's definitely a part of his character. So I'm not sure your argument actually fits here.

  4. #49

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    I didn't like Shang Chi until Jessica Drew started flirting with him.
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  5. #50
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    It is impossible to get away from Asian tropes in a comicbook, because comicbook tropes are also Asian tropes, even when no Asians are present in the story. Comicbooks are the land of martial artists, mad scientists, assassins, and crimelords. Martial artists, mad scientists, assassins, and crimelords are also Asian stereotypes.

    Batman is a ninja and scientist.

    Iron Man is a scientist who flies around in a mech.

    Kingpin is a sumo wrestler crimelord.

    Daredevil is a blind martial artist.

    Spider-Man is a science nerd who fights like an animal-based kung fu character.

    Wolverine is a Samurai who fights like an animal based kung fu character.

    Comics are so utterly bound up in tropes that are also Asian stereotypes, that to insist that an Asian character fit no stereotype, you would effectively ban them from comics.

  6. #51
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I didn't like Shang Chi until Jessica Drew started flirting with him.
    Did you read any of the Moench stuff from his old book?

  7. #52
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    theoretically, he'd recognize Shang Chi's teachings, as well. he has no doubt incorporated what he's learned sparring with Danny. I'm not even sure what the difference between kung fu and Kunlun style really is. the Immortal Weapons seem to have a wide variety of styles and weaponry.
    To be sure, that would make for an interesting storyline. In real life, there are differences among styles of Kung Fu. Sometimes they are slight and at other times they are grand. Still, there are differences nonetheless. I remember that the style of Hung Gar Kung Fu my sifu taught had different ways of performing a technique than other variations of Hung Gar.

    I'd really like to see Shang-Chi and Danny make astute observation on their respective styles of Kung Fu. I can guarantee you they will find differences that ordinary people (and I daresay even seasoned fighters like Captain America, Black Panther, and Daredevil) could not perceive.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Not he did say PROBABLY Tien Long. LOL

    So far both of them have been pretty even with or without the Iron Fist. With every match they have had so far ending in a stalemate.
    Ha yes DragonsChi, "probably" isn't a firm declaration of "certainly." However, though the comics still leave a contest b/w the two as being up in the air, I do hold my personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    It is impossible to get away from Asian tropes in a comicbook, because comicbook tropes are also Asian tropes, even when no Asians are present in the story. Comicbooks are the land of martial artists, mad scientists, assassins, and crimelords. Martial artists, mad scientists, assassins, and crimelords are also Asian stereotypes.

    Batman is a ninja and scientist.

    Iron Man is a scientist who flies around in a mech.

    Kingpin is a sumo wrestler crimelord.

    Daredevil is a blind martial artist.

    Spider-Man is a science nerd who fights like an animal-based kung fu character.

    Wolverine is a Samurai who fights like an animal based kung fu character.

    Comics are so utterly bound up in tropes that are also Asian stereotypes, that to insist that an Asian character fit no stereotype, you would effectively ban them from comics.
    I find that sad in a way. Now while I'm very much for Asians and Asian-Americans to take on a number of new roles in comics and other media (i.e. teacher, police officer, romantic hearthrob, stoned out slacker), I'm not offended by Asians being ninjas, crimelords, or martial artists. Rather, what makes me sad is that these "tropes" have a very limited connotation (and again, I think we have a tendency to think of the term "trope" as being automatically negative when in reality it merely describes a situation). Having known my fair share of Asian martial artists and having been a practitioner myself, I know that there is so, SOOOOO much depth to the martial arts. The culture, history, customs, and rituals of the Kung Fu are very rich. Moreover, the life of a martial artists can be very personable. While knowing how to do techniques like Tiger Claws and "Crane-Stands-On One Leg" are cool, the things I'll remember the most when training with my sifu was his advice on life, like how to deal with co-workers in the office. Or the times he told me how to properly handle my alcohol . Or his views on the political situation b/w mainland China vs. Hong Kong.

    What I'm trying to get at is that people get stuck on the trope. (Shang-Chi is an Asian martial artist. Period. Danny Rand is a white savior. Period.) And then they no longer wish to explore the other qualities, characteristics, and interests that this character has. Such a mentality can be quite disheartening.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  8. #53
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    it's 'advice.' and I didn't put any restrictions on the thread or premise. because I didn't care about the outcome.
    Without parameters, there are a number of ways that the subject can be interpreted.

    For instance, what if an untrained Shang-Chi arrived at K'un Lun just around the same time as Danny? In terms of skills, they would be on equal footing, no? And thus Shang-Chi would not be better in the martial arts than Danny. Still, I could see the two having had a rivalry, with Shang motivated to be a perfect weapon for his father and Danny motivated to seek vengeance for his parents. That would make for an interesting story.

    What if Shang-Chi were to take over the Iron Fist title? Perhaps in this scenario Danny would have given the title to Shang and then Danny would become the new Yu-Ti in K'un Lun. With Danny out of the way, Shang-Chi with the Iron Fist would be THE premiere martial artist in the Marvel Universe. There would be a huge target on his back and he'd have to contend with challenges from martial artists, tough guys, and psychopaths like Mr. X, Bullseye, Zaran, Batroc, and others. Not to mention that he'd have the responsibilities towards K'un Lun as well as fighting against the evil plots of his father.

    The only thing I could say to that is that Shang could have some very, very interesting possibilities with the iron fist indeed .
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    To be sure, that would make for an interesting storyline. In real life, there are differences among styles of Kung Fu. Sometimes they are slight and at other times they are grand. Still, there are differences nonetheless. I remember that the style of Hung Gar Kung Fu my sifu taught had different ways of performing a technique than other variations of Hung Gar.
    theoretically, Shang has mastered every version of kung fu. that's what I was getting at. he seems like someone who would continuously seek out ways to improve his craft. he's wayyy more disciplined than Danny (or even Taskmaster, really).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Ha yes DragonsChi, "probably" isn't a firm declaration of "certainly." However, though the comics still leave a contest b/w the two as being up in the air, I do hold my personal preference.
    if it means anything, T'challa told Luke that Shang Chi was the superior fighter (in reference to Danny). he should know. Danny nearly killed him. Luke wasn't having any of it. but I see T'challa as somewhat of an impartial authority.
    Last edited by Michael Watkins; 02-13-2018 at 09:26 PM.
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  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Did you read any of the Moench stuff from his old book?
    I have a stray issue or two. but it all revolved around him fighting stock martial arts characters with small scenes of black jack tar (or whatever that guy's name was). just wasn't my thing. I was just happy to get evidence of Shang being well regarded by someone else (and it not revolving around his mastery of kung fu).
    Quote Originally Posted by somacula View Post
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  11. #56
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I have a stray issue or two. but it all revolved around him fighting stock martial arts characters with small scenes of black jack tar (or whatever that guy's name was). just wasn't my thing. I was just happy to get evidence of Shang being well regarded by someone else (and it not revolving around his mastery of kung fu).
    I will speak very highly of that run, but it is not a run which is portrayed well with random stray issues. It does need blocks of issues to be appreciated. Imagine written for the trade but with each issue containing a full 70s amount of story. That was the original MOKF. I miss the seventies.

  12. #57
    Mighty Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Without parameters, there are a number of ways that the subject can be interpreted.

    For instance, what if an untrained Shang-Chi arrived at K'un Lun just around the same time as Danny? In terms of skills, they would be on equal footing, no? And thus Shang-Chi would not be better in the martial arts than Danny. Still, I could see the two having had a rivalry, with Shang motivated to be a perfect weapon for his father and Danny motivated to seek vengeance for his parents. That would make for an interesting story.

    What if Shang-Chi were to take over the Iron Fist title? Perhaps in this scenario Danny would have given the title to Shang and then Danny would become the new Yu-Ti in K'un Lun. With Danny out of the way, Shang-Chi with the Iron Fist would be THE premiere martial artist in the Marvel Universe. There would be a huge target on his back and he'd have to contend with challenges from martial artists, tough guys, and psychopaths like Mr. X, Bullseye, Zaran, Batroc, and others. Not to mention that he'd have the responsibilities towards K'un Lun as well as fighting against the evil plots of his father.

    The only thing I could say to that is that Shang could have some very, very interesting possibilities with the iron fist indeed .
    Long gets it. Thank you Long for expanding on that thought more. You observations are always welcomed.

    To stay in the confines of the thread....

    Danny being trained in K'un L'un and defeating Shao is the reason I think Danny is really the better martial artist of the two. Danny's training and techniques are literally not of this world, with K'un L'un residing in another dimension. While Shang could know or observed multiple martial arts on Earth, I have always felt that K'un L'un kung-fu would have noticeable difference then what even the greatest combatants have seen. Which would in return give Danny more of an edge since information has never been an issue coming into K'un L'un opposed to it getting out.

    Then there is the fact that Danny trained most of his life to best a dragon. Let me write that again a DRAGON. With nothing but his bare hands. While Shang is a skilled warrior and probably only a notch below Danny he has never defeated a dragon, at least as far as I know. While Danny has done it 2-3 times now.

    Now just because you have more "skill" then someone does not mean you are guaranteed a win in a match however. A lot more things come into play then just "skill" when you are in a sparring match or even actual combat. Shang, for instance is a cunning spy who uses his cleverness along with his skill to overcome threats and any obstacles he faces. Due to Shang's own personal confidence in himself along with his will pulls him out and a head of most situations.

    Danny on the other hand heavily relies on his training and the teachings he learned in K'un L'un. As the champion of K'un L'un he has been taught since childhood that the duty of Iron Fist is to his/her people and everything else after. So while Shang strength tends to reside in the belief of himself Danny is more so his belief of others or the needs of others. Danny pulls through more battles when something or someone is at stake. In return it tends to make Danny more light hearted since his strength is derived from others.


    When compared together I always feel that it is important to consider that Shang's confidence in himself is why in any match he engages in he probably would be more serious and out to win it. Since confidence is such a fickle thing to begin with it would be important for Shang to maintain his self image at all times. Shang has no iron fist to fall back on so if Shang looses it could very well put him in a state of self doubt that would weaken the mental strength he needs to play in the same sand box as the Avengers on a regular bases.

    Danny, on the other hand, when engaging in sparring matches or battle against friends tends to hold back and not bring the same level of intensity that he does when facing villains or trying to save the world in general. Mostly because he has nothing to loose in those situations. Danny has already defeated his dragon, he has claimed and earned his powers, and he is a champion of a people. Which is why in most settings with characters Danny is close to he is more whimsical and laid back. Danny does have the warrior instinct to win like Shang but if no one is endanger Danny in most cases would not tap into it.

    I say all of that to say this....in most sparing matches Shang may beat Danny just due to their individual characteristics. However, in a battle to the death or a match where others depended on the outcome Danny would take most of those.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 02-14-2018 at 04:47 AM.

  13. #58
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    The title played tricks on my eyes at first...

    In order to inherit the Iron Fist title Shang-Chi would've had to go through the same training as Danny did and most people would consider the K'un Lun arts inferior to whatever Shang Chi knows.

    Also if the Iron Fist powers and title passed to Shang Chi it would just be a minor power boost. He might finally be able to beat Spider-Man, the strongest hero in the Marvel Universe.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Long gets it. Thank you Long for expanding on that thought more. You observations are always welcomed.

    To stay in the confines of the thread....

    Danny being trained in K'un L'un and defeating Shao is the reason I think Danny is really the better martial artist of the two. Danny's training and techniques are literally not of this world, with K'un L'un residing in another dimension. While Shang could know or observed multiple martial arts on Earth, I have always felt that K'un L'un kung-fu would have noticeable difference then what even the greatest combatants have seen. Which would in return give Danny more of an edge since information has never been an issue coming into K'un L'un opposed to it getting out.

    Then there is the fact that Danny trained most of his life to best a dragon. Let me write that again a DRAGON. With nothing but his bare hands. While Shang is a skilled warrior and probably only a notch below Danny he has never defeated a dragon, at least as far as I know. While Danny has done it 2-3 times now.

    Now just because you have more "skill" then someone does not mean you are guaranteed a win in a match however. A lot more things come into play then just "skill" when you are in a sparring match or even actual combat. Shang, for instance is a cunning spy who uses his cleverness along with his skill to overcome threats and any obstacles he faces. Due to Shang's own personal confidence in himself along with his will pulls him out and a head of most situations.

    Danny on the other hand heavily relies on his training and the teachings he learned in K'un L'un. As the champion of K'un L'un he has been taught since childhood that the duty of Iron Fist is to his/her people and everything else after. So while Shang strength tends to reside in the belief of himself Danny is more so his belief of others or the needs of others. Danny pulls through more battles when something or someone is at stake. In return it tends to make Danny more light hearted since his strength is derived from others.


    When compared together I always feel that it is important to consider that Shang's confidence in himself is why in any match he engages in he probably would be more serious and out to win it. Since confidence is such a fickle thing to begin with it would be important for Shang to maintain his self image at all times. Shang has no iron fist to fall back on so if Shang looses it could very well put him in a state of self doubt that would weaken the mental strength he needs to play in the same sand box as the Avengers on a regular bases.

    Danny, on the other hand, when engaging in sparring matches or battle against friends tends to hold back and not bring the same level of intensity that he does when facing villains or trying to save the world in general. Mostly because he has nothing to loose in those situations. Danny has already defeated his dragon, he has claimed and earned his powers, and he is a champion of a people. Which is why in most settings with characters Danny is close to he is more whimsical and laid back. Danny does have the warrior instinct to win like Shang but if no one is endanger Danny in most cases would not tap into it.

    I say all of that to say this....in most sparing matches Shang may beat Danny just due to their individual characteristics. However, in a battle to the death or a match where others depended on the outcome Danny would take most of those.
    I posted a picture of Shang beating a dragon, in this thread.
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  15. #60
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    A big Danny/Shang difference which IMO overshadows any K'un L'un vs. Main Earth martial arts is that Shang started serious training at a much earlier age than Danny did. Shang's childhood made Tiger Woods' look lackadaisical. Granted Danny could have picked up some stuff from his dad growing up and honestly, he would needed some physical conditioning to survive even an uneventful mountain climb like he had at that age. But there was no way Danny got the pre-school and early childhood Kick Ass training Shang did before age 9.

    And skill isn't an immutable metric. If A is better than B, B sometimes still beats A. B may perform better against C than A does as well.

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