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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSeaDragon View Post
    good for you, but everyone is obsessed with those movies, and they affect the brand image

    By the way , Marvel big movie succes is not translating to their comics. People dont love Iron man , cap or Star lord, they love Downey, Evans and Pratt. Comic wise, Batman still outsells all of them every month
    Interesting.

    Out of curiosity, who is "Everyone"?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by josh62 View Post
    In my opinion, DC's movies are worse than Marvel's. HOWEVER, (again in my opinion) DC have way better comics; and according to the Comichron data, their comics outsold Marvel's in January. I don't think it's a hard time to be a DC comics fan, I think it's a hard time to be a DC movies fan.
    DC sold more comics in January but marvel made more money.
    I think marvel and dc comics on average are on par these day,but i give marvel the edge.
    So for me i think marvel comics on average are better then dc comics.
    Last edited by mace11; Today at 09:03 PM.

  3. #48
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    Because you sit up and look at this ROSTER-DC should be beating the HELL out of Marvel.

    If Dc did diversity right-books like New Superman would DESTROY Miles, Panther, Falcon, Ms Marvel and the other so-called SJW books.
    I don't think so.
    I don't agree with this view.

  4. #49

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    It's a tough time for me to be a DC fan. And it just has to do with the stories in the comics, not with the relative popularity of various movies, or whether "Marvel is doing better than DC."

    NOTE: This one's kinda long. Skip it if you're not interested in world-building.

    One (and I stress, one) of the things that I'm interested in in serial fiction is world-building, and I respond to the attempts on the part of writers to try and build a coherent, organic setting for their stories. I think it's better for the stories, and I think a well-designed narrative setting can be a thing of beauty in and of itself - a literary achievement, just as much as a well-designed character is.

    DC has done a good job of this and a bad job of this, depending on where you're looking at the time. (Mainly because some writers - and editors! Don't forget editors! - think it's of value; some don't think it's of value; some don't even know what I'm talking about. Roy Thomas loved this stuff. John Byrne, as far as I can tell, couldn't care less. And it's the latter that editors let run rampant.)

    Mind you, I don't expect perfection. I don't expect perfection in any aspect of comic-book writing (or writing in general) - dialogue, pacing, character development, thematic resonance, etc. - because everything's a trade-off. Sometimes, for example, you just need to communicate some exposition to the reader, and you put it in the mouth of a convenient character even if, really, he has no good motive for saying it. That generally leads to bad (or, OOC) dialogue, but you've only got 22 pages and sometimes it's necessary. You just do the best you can. The same goes for narrative coherence of the setting and character backstories.

    So I don't expect perfection. But, man!, do I ever appreciate a good-faith effort! A sense that the writer is meeting me half-way, reaching out to me and my comic-book values, even though he also has other things to focus on as well. (Things that are also important to me, to a greater or lesser extent.)

    Part of this is also related to seeing stories followed up on: mysteries that the writers introduce being solved over time (even if years later, and in another book). Character development being built on the experiences of the characters. Relationships between the characters being remembered and developed. That kind of thing. (All within a given continuity. I do not believe that details from different continuities have to match. But I also believe that, if you reboot your continuity while people are still following mysteries and relationships that never get resolved, you may wind up with frustrated readers. It's a trade-off.)

    Overall, it's been pretty messy since the aftermath of Crisis on Infinite Earths. (I liked CoIE. But what came after was a poorly-planned meshing of unrelated elements, with frequent "fixes" that often made things worse. And sometimes there was careful planning that was abandoned halfway through.)

    Still, whenever DC does a reboot, or a large collection of retcons that pretty much add up to a reboot, I have the hope - however faint - that this time they'll think their way through things and create a fictional setting that fits together somewhat better.

    So that's me.

    Right now the DCU is such a mess of conflicting elements, undefined circumstances and relationships, lazy deus ex machina developments, characters who spent years with fake memories, characters whose activities have been wiped out of not only their memories but the memories of everyone on the planet, characters who existed but were removed from reality and are now coming back, a Batman who goes into a "we don't kill!" rage when Batwoman kills someone in Detective Comics but doesn't bat an eye when Killer Frost kills somebody in Justice League of America (yes, the precise details can be debated ad infinitum, but really the stories don't seem to be taking place in the same universe), a Donna Troy on her worst origin yet which does not even seem to fit in with what (little) we know of Wonder Woman's most current backstory...

    The whole narrative setting seems to me to be a Frankenstein's Monster of a universe, stitched together from unconnected parts, where you can still see all the seams and the bolts.

    Now, I would like to believe that this is just a temporary condition as they transition from The New 52 to whatever is coming next, and that by the time Rebirth and Rebirth-like changes, and Doomsday Clock, are finished, they will take advantage of all the history-shifting activities to clean a lot of this up. But given the way they are actually writing that transition, I seriously doubt that.

    Just as an example: TPTB decided that The New 52 run of Wonder Woman (whatever anyone might think of that arc as an independent story) will not be the story of Wonder Woman and her mythos - her origins, her early years as a superhero, what the Amazons are like, and so on. Something else will. Okay, that's a decision. (One that's fine by me, by the way.) Go with it.

    But the way they went about it? We got 14 whole issues - "The Lies" and "The Truth" - by George Rucka, a very good writer, the primary purpose of which was to explain why, even though The New 52 version was not true, Diana none-the-less had years of memories of it being true, and hallucinatory Holodeck-like experiences of it being true. They were getting rid of The New 52 story, but instead of simply assigning it to an Elseworlds (or spending one or two issues explaining why it existed in a "notional world," like the one Odin showed Morpheus in Sandman's "Season of Mists"), they had a good writer spend a dozen-plus issues dealing with it, in a twisted, convoluted way that still leaves it embedded in Diana's life - all those years she believed it was true, and it thus affected how she thought of herself and how she related to others during that time. All that writer's time and publication resources to deal in such detail with a story you are moving out of continuity!

    This strikes me as a very strange priority, unrelated to creating the best possible origin and backstory for Wonder Woman and her supporting cast going forward. And I would argue that this priority actually warped Diana's backstory in a way that's not good for her as a character.

    - We now know less about Diana and the Amazons than we did at the end of The New 52. (How did wrathful Hera, still an important part of the story given Jason and all, react to the children of her husband's infidelities, and how was she ultimately reconciled? At the end of Azzarello's run, we knew. Now we don't. That's just one example.)

    - The years of fake memories that are still part of Diana's backstory are cluttering baggage. Any writer who wants to write a flashback to Diana's early days in Man's World, or her interactions with Donna Troy/Wonder Girl in those days, is going to have to take into account that Diana, at that time, had completely false ideas about her life on Themyscira and relationships to the Amazons and the gods.

    - Ares got caught up in this as an excuse for the gods giving Diana false memories, and now it's canon that he's been imprisoned on Themysicra continuously for 3000+ years. This means that up to this point in her superhero career, Diana has never fought Ares. Or a current villain granted power by Ares. Or dealt with the consequences of his intrigues and manipulations. And no one can write an in-continuity story about Ares' interactions with other Olympians, and the world, during Roman times, when he was worshipped as Mars. Personally, I think Ares is too interesting and vital a character to "take off the board" like this - especially when you're doing it to "address" a story that's leaving continuity.

    I don't think any of that serves the character of Wonder Woman well. And it suggests that TPTB are much more interested in investing energy into "managing" the transition from The New 52 to... whatever comes next (with a lot of stories based on "justifying" why the New 52 was kind of, sort of, there, even though it won't be any more) than they are in putting their attention on whatever comes next, and making sure it provides a (relatively speaking, not perfection-seeking speaking) coherent, organic setting and collection of backstories that are actually best for the characters.

    Wonder Woman is just one example. I could talk about a bunch. And maybe I'm wrong, in one of two ways.

    - Maybe they are planning on cleaning all this up by the time Doomsday Clock is finished. But I don't think so. If they are, they're spending an awful lot of time writing stories that will no longer be in continuity in a year or two.

    - Maybe what I see as a Frankenstein's Monster of a narrative setting really is the best for the characters and storylines going forward. But I've been reading comics (and science fiction, and fantasy, and other fiction, and watching serialized shows on TV) for a long time, and it sure doesn't look that way to me.

    So: for me it's a hard time to be a DC fan. I like the characters, I really do, and I have that fannish interest in seeing "what's going to happen with them next!" Much more so than with the Marvel characters.

    But I value world-building, and everything I've seen since the end of Flashpoint (or even before that) leads me to believe that TPTB have every intention of treating organic, coherent world-building as a extremely low priority for the foreseeable future. That makes it hard for me to enjoy the comics now (the continuity is a mess), and makes it hard to look forward eagerly to what's coming.

    But that's just me.
    Last edited by Doctor Bifrost; Today at 09:18 PM.
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  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Is it hard to be a DC fan?

    Yes. It's always hard to be a DC fan. For everything they do right, there are still glaring and painful missteps in other areas.

    In film, yes it's almost physically painful to be a DC fan. Sometimes it's because the movies are just terrible. Sometimes its because other "fans" rage and rant against any story trying to do something even slightly different than what was done forty years ago.

    In video games, it doesn't hurt at all to be a fan. I'm enjoying Injustice 2, and DCU Online is still fun. In fact, that game might (in some ways) actually be getting better with age.

    In cartoons.....well I'm not much of a cartoon guy, but my daughter loves Teen Titans Go and Super Hero Girls and my son and I am excited to watch another season of Young Justice later this year. But in this, its only a good situation when compared to Marvel. Cartoon Network is the devil, and they try very hard to make sure my kids don't have quality DC stuff.

    In live action tv, it's not a bad time at all. There's a lot of shows out there, covering a lot of material. And even though the CW shows are....very CW-ish, they're very successful for the network. Granted, DC doesn't have a strong line of mature, adult shows like Marvel's Defenders roster, but there's hope yet with the HBO Watchmen and that new DC streaming service.

    In comics, its often hard to be a fan. There are always at least a couple gems in DC's line. But there's always at least a couple of turds too. And DC almost always comes in second with the direct market, which gets tiring, and fosters ridiculous opinions and side-taking among fans. I also find it hard to stomach arguments about whether DC's comics are worse or better than Marvel's, because I honestly haven't seen a big difference in quality or the quantity of that quality in decades. They're basically indistinguishable when it comes to the quality of their books, the stories they tell, the genres they explore.....aside from the IP names, they're basically the same company.

    And DC.....DC is its own worst enemy. That is what makes it really difficult. It's not the most well run company. They do a lot of great stuff, but they also do a lot of really stupid things, and for every step forward they take one step back. They bench a lot of their best minority characters, but create a line of new diverse characters with big names pushing them. They bring in some great minority talent, but protect a sexual predator and give him editorial control of the world's most iconic superhero. They lie, badly, to their fans, think it's still 1994, and try to manipulate their customer base. All of which would be fine, business being business and all, except they're so gods damn bad at it, it reminds me of my daughter telling me she didn't eat the chocolate when she's got chocolate all over her face. They take risks when they don't need to, play it safe when they need to be risky.....sometimes its like watching someone play poker who doesn't really know how to play poker. It's funny....but not "ha ha" funny.

    But generally, I think DC does more things right than they do wrong. Still, it's hard to be a fan sometimes.
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  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    DC as a brand has been lagging behind Marvel for awhile now
    Marvel is a steam engine chugging along with all the love and credibility to spare at the moment
    They wholly accept their universe and will push any character no matter how obscure they always find a way to make them work
    Everything is given time and nobody is felt left out, Every character gets their turn
    People may dislike something but they never feel like invalidating any character

    DC is a paddle boat, they are starting to take on water and trying to save the ship
    DC as a whole is pretty insecure about a lot of things with the universe. Some don't like Batman being the top dog and have issues with how that colors the universe
    Others have issues with the status of their favorite character
    And then you also have the old guard not liking the tone of the comics,media, movies whatever anything you produced will not be liked by some segment of the fandom
    DC is a pretty divisive place its the only time I've see a company openly attack a creators work who has built the foundation for a lot of their obscure characters like swamp thing

    All this contributes to the problem with the movies being bad

    So yeah its pretty hard being a DC fan and the more success marvel gets these issues will only be exasperated

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    For me, it's been hard to be a DC fan since about 1992.
    But I just try to look on the bright side and take whatever crumbs they toss my way.
    Currently reading: Camelot 3000, Dreadstar, Omega Men, Robotech

  8. #53

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    So many insecure fans ITT, I'm sorry but it's kind of embarassing tbh.

    All it will take is higher quality films from DC and their box office will increase, look at Wonder Woman. Hopefully Aquaman and Shazam are good too and make a lot of money. And if not who really cares, is anyone here getting a piece of the profits? Or what if there's a Transformer/Suicide Squad situation where the films are considered bad but still make money anyway? Will that make anyone feel better about the DCEU's public standing? "Hooray a DCEU movie made $1b, yeah it sucked but people liked it! I don't have to feel inferior to Marvel fans anymore! Yay!"

    A lot of people still don't know the difference between the 2 companies in regards to which character belongs to which company ("Why wasn't Batman in the Avengers?") And it's not like DC is doing bad in every department either, their TV shows are successsful, comic sales on par with Marvel, video games have been popular, merchandise sales are up. Last year that 2 most tweeted about movie characters (All movies not just superhero ones ) were Batman and Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn, the Joker and Batman all sold more Halloween costumes than any Marvel character. So DC, could be doing better for sure but it's not as bad as people make it seem.

  9. #54
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    When are people going to realize that in the grand scheme of things, comics don't matter. Comics only reach a very miniscule (and dwindling) audience, and most younger fans either read "bootleg" versions for free online or ignore them all together. Movies, TV, Video Games and Animation reach a much wider audience and help establish a brand!
    When we were little kids after we got done reading a comic book we would trade them to other kids for their comic books. So the comic books publishers were losing probably 70% of potential sales they would
    have had if we had bought those other comic books. In a way low-tech piracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    Well that's mainly because CN just wants to be nothing more than the Teen Titans Go channel. But we have Young Justice season 3 coming up, which I am extremely hyped for. And some of the animated ones since Flashpoint Paradox were duds (especially Justice League War and The Killing Joke), but DC still has an amazing track record when it comes to animated films. Plus Batman: Ninja looks pretty sweet.
    Also I think CN is planning on giving DC Super Hero Girls more of a push.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baseman View Post
    Not sure if this is a healthy mindset to have.Superheros wouldn't be popular forever.
    Can't say I agree with that. Samson, Hercules, and other characters from ancient mythology are still popular. Superheroes are just modern mythology. As long as there is a medium to record their adventures,
    people will still want stories about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Falcon View Post
    Why? I have never understood this. I have heard many people say that they like DC more than Marvel. For me, its been the opposite. I like Marvel more than I like DC. Though that's mostly because my favorite superhero is Spider-Man.
    I like DC because my favorite characters are Catwoman, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Batman, Superman. Only have a mild interest in Spider-Man and Hulk and was never all that interested in any of the
    other Marvel character. Have never even watched AoS or any of the Marvel Netflix shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    If one's primary concern is the movies, then yeah. DC/WB makes terrible movies on the whole, that's just the reality of it. And it doesn't look like its something that's going to be fixed anytime soon. But me, I'm at the point now where I don't even care anymore. I'm a comics first guy. Always have been and always will be. To me that is the medium in which these characters thrive the most. Its just not where they make the most money anymore, unfortunately. But the comics are where I live. Animation is second. Movies are a far distant third.
    With me it's more the DC TV shows. Especially Supergirl and Gotham. I sort of gave up on comic books for a while after DC cancelled the Catwoman comic books. But have gotten back into them because of the
    Supergirl TV show and now have started reading Batman again now that Catwoman is a player in the Batman comic books.

  10. #55
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    The core of the problem are the movies. Zack Snyder has wrecked DC characters and his fanboys give a bad name to all DC fans with their antics. This is the reality of it. WB deserves flack too for their reactionary approach, hiring Snyder multiple times and greedy mentality. BVS was the first disaster, JL was the second. These were their biggest properties so yes mockery is to be expected and then you can expect it to intensify when Snyder fans use every strawman tactic, every loop hole, every excuse to defend Snyder, blatantly ignore facts, play the blame game, pretend to be more mature and having intellectual tastes in films and it goes on.

  11. #56
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    As a DC fan no I dont get ridicule because I know the ridicule is because of the films which I acknowledge are shit so need to get upset.

    DC enjoys good PR in the comics department, a lot more than Marvel, those Zoom and Ink announcements are a good example. Their games and animation products are also considered superior.
    TV is mixed
    So as long as you stay on the comics and toons side of things you wont find any ridicule.

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