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  1. #151
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    A lot of my problems with Valeria would be solved if writers actually wrote her like an intelligent child rather than a small adult. She should should have childlike qualities like having tantrums when she doesn't get her way, being unable to pronounce the big words she tries to say, being obsessed with ponies or something. She needs qualities like these as while she may be very intelligent for her age, she should be as emotionally developed as any other 3-5 year old.
    There are also examples of media that does it right like with Stewie on Family Guy or Lisa on the Simpsons.
    Well you just described Franklin. Valeria is written (most of the time) to be the opposite of him.

  2. #152
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    I'm just surprised we're focusing on Unthinkable of all things cause while its pretty good it does kind of shit the bed on characterizations to tell the story it wants. Kind of like that other story with Doom and that peasant girl. Doom just does it because he's the villain that can be defeated by a blind man throwing nets, and a bomb that can't burn hotter than the Human torch but can apparently trash Doom chest armor that he has to discard it.
    Yeah, I think some writers make the mistake that the way to give Doom more "villain cred" is to have him do something really awful...and Unthinkable. With Waid, I knew the path he would take was going to be pretty dark when he said he felt that Doom would bite the head off a newborn baby if it would help get one over on Reed. And seeing as how much it took for Doom to free his mother and then the trials he went through annually in another bargain with a demon, it didn't make sense that he would even need to consort with the Hazaareth demons to get a power up. He already was near Sorceror Supreme level anyway having been tutored by Stephen prior to undertaking the fight with Mephisto.

    IMO I've always found any villain more interesting if they have more shades of gray and not an all out black hat villain. And I think I am not alone in the opinion that Steve Englehart screwed over a lot of characters in his day....Crystal, Clea (who cheated on Stephen with Ben Franklin of all people) and Quicksilver. Not to mention his pet character Mantis who was just an awful addition to the Avengers when he was writing it.

  3. #153
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Kristoff would disagree on that last point.
    Would he really? He was very distraught when he thought Doom had died holding off the Mad Celestials.

    The last time we saw him, he was living with Doom and having dinner with Reed and Stephen.

    No writer has really used him since Hickman left AFAIK. I credit Hickman with bringing him back into the fold so to speak. One of Hickman's themes during his run was that of fathers and sons....Reed and Nathaniel, Reed and Franklin, Bentley Whitman and Bentley 23 (or sometimes 32), Doom and Kristoff. But even earlier than that in the Gage's Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four mini, we saw Kristoff was angry because he felt the only father he had known neglected him. We know what really happens is that no writer really used him since Heroes Reborn. I think he was just shuffled off in to neglected and forgotten character limbo, like Wyatt Wingfoot.

    When Kristoff came to Jennifer to have her represent him in court in a case where he wanted to seek asylum in the U.S, she found him to be a bit spoiled. But his real complaint with the only man he's ever known as his father was that he wanted to get out from under his shadow and be his own man. Funny how with Kristoff he's reaching adulthood whereas Franklin seems to be permanently around 9 years old when originally he and Kristoff were around the same age.
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 03-13-2018 at 08:13 AM.

  4. #154
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Would he really? He was very distraught when he thought Doom had died holding off the Mad Celestials.

    The last time we saw him, he was living with Doom and having dinner with Reed and Stephen.

    No writer has really used him since Hickman left AFAIK. I credit Hickman with bringing him back into the fold so to speak. One of Hickman's themes during his run was that of fathers and sons....Reed and Nathaniel, Reed and Franklin, Bentley Whitman and Bentley 23 (or sometimes), Doom and Kristoff. But even earlier than that in the Gage's Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four mini, we saw Kristoff was angry because he felt the only father he had known neglected him. We know what really happens is that no writer really used him since Heroes Reborn. I think he was just shuffled off in to neglected and forgotten character, like Wyatt Wingfoot.

    When Kristoff came to Jennifer to have her represent him in court in a case where he wanted to seek asylum in the U.S, she found him to be a bit spoiled. But his real complaint with the only man he's ever known as his father was that he wanted to get out from under his shadow and be his own man. Funny how with Kristoff he's reaching adulthood whereas Franklin seems to be permanently around 9 years old when originally he and Kristoff were around the same age.
    I so want to see Bentley. Kristoff, and Franklin and how Wizard, Doom, and Reed have dealt with issues of fatherhood.

  5. #155
    Astonishing Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Well you just described Franklin. Valeria is written (most of the time) to be the opposite of him.
    No Franklin is an average kid when it comes to intelligence just with the powers of a God. He should be the Bart to Val's Lisa.

    Val doesn't act like a super-smart child, she acts like an adult which both is jarring and boring. Some things should be different considering her intelligence, but she should still be emotionally immature and still have child-like qualities. It would be fun that whenever she has a tantrum she might make a doomsday device or some other crazy gadget, or she makes a disintegrator for the boogieman, or she creates a device to catch the tooth fairy. The trick is to combine child-like characteristics with the super intelligence. While she is super smart she should still believe in things like Santa and get sacred by the dark. Focusing so much on her intelligence to the point where doesn't act like a child at all is a disservice to the character and a missed opportunity for so many fun ideas.

    I've also noticed that there is no child-like wonder to any scientific discovery with her. She acts like a 50 year old who's seen it all before and is about to write her memoirs, even Reed gets excited like a kid when he discovers something new. No writer has written Valeria in a good way for me.
    Last edited by Crimz; 03-13-2018 at 08:27 AM.
    FANTASTIC FOUR #1 out AUGUST 8th! Be sure to check it out!

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  6. #156
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    No Franklin is an average kid when it comes to intelligence just with the powers of a God. He should be the Bart to Val's Lisa.

    Val doesn't act like a super-smart child, she acts like an adult which both is jarring and boring. Some things should be different considering her intelligence, but she should still be emotionally immature and still have child-like qualities. It would be fun that whenever she has a tantrum she might make a doomsday device or some other crazy gadget, or she makes a disintegrator for the boogieman, or she a device to catch the tooth fairy. The trick is to combine child-like characteristics with the super intelligence. While she is super smart she should still believe in things like Santa and get sacred by the dark. Focusing so much on her intelligence to the point where doesn't act like a child at all is a disservice to the character and a missed opportunity for so many fun ideas.

    I've also noticed that there is no child-like wonder to any scientific discovery with her. She acts like a 50 year old who's seen it all before and is about to write her memoirs, even Reed gets excited like a kid when he discovers something new. No writer has written Valeria in good way for me.
    That is the funny thing about Val sometimes (though I don't necessarily think it's a boring aspect of the character). She can often seem the smartest, most mature person in the room.

  7. #157
    Astonishing Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    That is the funny thing about Val sometimes (though I don't necessarily think it's a boring aspect of the character). She can often seem the smartest, most mature person in the room.
    That can still happen as she is still very intelligent, but she shouldn't be just a small adult who doesn't act like a child at all. Her occasionally seeming to be smartest and most mature in the room would actually be emphasized even more if she actually acts like a child most of the time.
    Last edited by Crimz; 03-13-2018 at 08:26 AM.
    FANTASTIC FOUR #1 out AUGUST 8th! Be sure to check it out!

    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

    I NEED an Invisible Woman solo! It's got to happen sometime right?......right?

  8. #158
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    No Franklin is an average kid when it comes to intelligence just with the powers of a God. He should be the Bart to Val's Lisa.

    Val doesn't act like a super-smart child, she acts like an adult which both is jarring and boring. Some things should be different considering her intelligence, but she should still be emotionally immature and still have child-like qualities. It would be fun that whenever she has a tantrum she might make a doomsday device or some other crazy gadget, or she makes a disintegrator for the boogieman, or she a device to catch the tooth fairy. The trick is to combine child-like characteristics with the super intelligence. While she is super smart she should still believe in things like Santa and get sacred by the dark. Focusing so much on her intelligence to the point where doesn't act like a child at all is a disservice to the character and a missed opportunity for so many fun ideas.

    I've also noticed that there is no child-like wonder to any scientific discovery with her. She acts like a 50 year old who's seen it all before and is about to write her memoirs, even Reed gets excited like a kid when he discovers something new. No writer has written Valeria in good way for me.
    Are you bringing in actual intelligent observations about FF characters into a thread like this one?

  9. #159
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I so want to see Bentley. Kristoff, and Franklin and how Wizard, Doom, and Reed have dealt with issues of fatherhood.
    I thought it was hilarious that in Soule's She Hulk Kristoff tells her that his first girl friend was a robot built by Dad.

  10. #160
    Nothing is safe TakoM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    if it was the 80s of 90s then undoubtedly doom would have revealed that Valeria isn't a real person but a construct of magic made from part of his soul or alternatively he had ensorcelled her to be a magical weapon to used against her family when the time was right like having her possessed by a demon to attack the FF and to banish the demon they will have to kill her or die themselves. Bendis would use it for FF disassembled if he was still at marvel and then make the ghost Rider spider man hulk and wolverine join to form a new FF.
    And in the 2000s Reed would knew it all from the beginning and would play along with it in hopes to create a new society with it.

  11. #161
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    that the relationship between Doom and Valeria is healthy is delusion

    Healthly is subjective..... Some of us here find it a fascinating relationship

    that Doom didn't spend the better part of a century as a petty self-serving villain is delusion

    He also spent part of that time helping the FF fight the Overmind at Sue's request.
    Cured the comatose Atlanteans
    Helped Spider-Man, Wanda, and the Vision against the Dark Rider
    Defeated the Beyonders plan to destroy the multiverse when no one else figured it out in time
    Provided evidence to the U.S. that Wakanda wasn't responsible for destroying one of their ships



    the Fantastic Four did not deserve to be tormented

    Valeria did not deserve to be snuffed out and, literally, treated as an object for Doom's revenge scheme

    According to Mark Waid apparently it was necessary for his story. We are free to disagree with it just as many Spider-Man fans disagree with OMD.

    Doom was way too powerful to be defending himself when he murdered Cassie Lang

    If you're going to fight in the big leagues you better be ready to take it. And he did bring her back to life again.

    if you can't accept these truths, then you've chosen to embrace a comfortable lie

    Nope, we just don't agree with some writers interpretations.
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 03-13-2018 at 09:07 AM.

  12. #162
    Mighty Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    About doom and franklin don't forget doom offered to take him in and help him control his powers in fantastic four 306 and annual 20. They turned him down flat but he took him anyways then wanted to trade his soul for his moms! Nice guy.

    [IMG][/IMG]




    With that said doom has been less evil in the current stories and more "a big jerk" like quicksilver and sub-mariner was when they were in avengers. So I could see him making things up with the fantastic four.


    That is the funny thing about Val sometimes (though I don't necessarily think it's a boring aspect of the character). She can often seem the smartest, most mature person in the room.
    Val reminds me of haibara in detective conan.

  13. #163
    Astonishing Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post


    Val reminds me of haibara in detective conan.
    That kind of highlights the problem with Val to me as Haibara is literally an adult trapped in a kids body. Val is just meant to be a really smart kid.
    I think Stewie from Family Guy (before it became crap) could be a fun template for writing Val in the future minus the whole trying to kill her mother part.

    Last edited by Crimz; 03-13-2018 at 09:27 AM.
    FANTASTIC FOUR #1 out AUGUST 8th! Be sure to check it out!

    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

    I NEED an Invisible Woman solo! It's got to happen sometime right?......right?

  14. #164
    Fantastic Member The Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    that the relationship between Doom and Valeria is healthy is delusion

    Healthly is subjective..... Some of us here find it a fascinating relationship
    It's the story of a toddler favoring the violent despot of a totalitarian state that has dedicated his life to destroy her family over her own family.

    It's also the story of two heroic characters neglecting their role in raising a child.

    Hardly what anyone would call "healthy".

  15. #165
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray View Post
    It's the story of a toddler favoring the violent despot of a totalitarian state that has dedicated his life to destroy her family over her own family.

    It's also the story of two heroic characters neglecting their role in raising a child.

    Hardly what anyone would call "healthy".
    It's fictional. Healthy doesn't matter. Was it immoral for Snow White to live with 7 Dwarfs?

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