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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member The Ray's Avatar
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    Default Is so stupid that Valeria Richards hangs out with Dr. Doom...

    It's very simple: Doom once kidnapped her brother and put the kid in Hell.

    You know what Hell is? A realm of evil and suffering and nothing more. Literally the worse imaginable place. Putting someone there is the single worst thing you can do to anyone, and he did that to a child, her brother.

    So, imagine someone doing something really, really awful to a child. So, what Doom did to her brother is WORSE than that.

    I am already supposed to believe that the incredibly smart Valeria sees nothing wrong with being a violent despot. But am I also supposed to believe that the incredibly smart Valeria Richards sees nothing wrong with kidnapping and putting your brother in hell? Something that Doom used to be able to torture her whole family? She is so smart, so inteligent, that she sees some kind of noble act in submitting her family to torture and suffering that us, mere dumb mortals, cannot hope to see?

    Am I supposed to see that as good writing?

  2. #2
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray View Post
    Am I supposed to see that as good writing?
    Since you've never actually read the books, it's a moot point, innit?

  3. #3
    Fantastic Member The Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Since you've never actually read the books, it's a moot point, innit?
    It's getting old. Come up with a better excuse to avoid the questions, please.

    Kim Jong Un decides to torture your brother, your mother, your father and your uncles for whatever reason. He also has dedicated his life to make attempts against the lives of your whole family for a very petty reason. Are you so smart that you see the nobility on those actions and decides to spend time with him instead of with your family?

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Incredibly smart people can believe stupid things too. That said, I really don't think it was ever about her /not/ seeing anything wrong with what Doom did.

  5. #5
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Valeria is one of the few people old Doom actually likes. He delivered her when Reed was captured by the Hidden Ones (an offshoot of the Inhumans) and no one else was around that knew what to do. Bven Reed couldn't stop Sue from miscarrying before (FF #267) and she lost the baby when Reed couldn't capture Doc Ock in time to bring him to the hospital. He wanted Otto there because he was/is a specialist in radiation. But with Valeria Doom was uniquely qualified since he is a master of science and and very adept at sorcercy, both of which was used to safely deliver Valeria.



    Part of the reason why there is an affinity between the two is because of the tangled history of her conception and birth. When the FF were fighting Abraxas and the Ultimate Nullifier had to be used, along with Franklin using his reality altering powers, Sue became pregnant again. What we learn is that when Sue lost the baby in FF #267 during Byrne's run , Franklin intervened and with Roma's help and she was kept "In the Heart and Soul of of Eternity". She comes to the FF as the teen-aged Valeria von Doom, who comes from an alternate reality where Victor was Sue's second husband after Reed had died in some unnamed conflict. It's sort of assumed that Valeria von Doom/Valeria Richards are linked because of this. So it is very possible she has an affinity for Victor since part of her tangled history includes a period where there was a paternal relationship via Valeria Von Doom.

    Girl children seem to have a liking for Doom. Nadia Pym was excited to meet him as Infamous Iron Man.

    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 03-12-2018 at 01:27 AM.

  6. #6
    Fantastic Member The Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Valeria is one of the few people old Doom actually likes. He delivered her when Reed was captured by the Hidden Ones (an offshoot of the Inhumans) and no one else was around that knew what to do. Bven Reed couldn't stop Sue from miscarrying before (FF #267) and she lost the baby when Reed couldn't capture Doc Ock in time to bring him to the hospital. He wanted Otto there because he was/is a specialist in radiation. But with Valeria Doom was uniquely qualified since he is a master of science and and very adept at sorcercy, both of which was used to safely deliver Valeria.



    Part of the reason why there is an affinity between the two is because of the tangled history of her conception and birth. When the FF were fighting Abraxas and the Ultimate Nullifier had to be used, along with Franklin using his reality altering powers, Sue became pregnant again. What we learn is that when Sue lost the baby in FF #267 during Byrne's run , Franklin intervened and with Roma's help and she was kept "In the Heart and Soul of of Eternity". She comes to the FF as the teen-aged Valeria von Doom, who comes from an alternate reality where Victor was Sue's second husband after Reed had died in some unnamed conflict. It's sort of assumed that Valeria von Doom/Valeria Richards are linked because of this. So it is very possible she has an affinity for Victor since part of her tangled history includes a period where there was a paternal relationship via Valeria Von Doom.
    Okay.

    How about the part that Doom has dedicated decades of his life to destroy her family for petty reasons, going as far as to torture her brother when he was litle more than a toddler? Why can't the genial Valeria sees he wrongness of that, when even a dumb guy like me can?

  7. #7
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray View Post
    Okay.

    How about the part that Doom has dedicated decades of his life to destroy her family for petty reasons, going as far as to torture her brother when he was litle more than a toddler? Why can't the genial Valeria sees he wrongness of that, when even a dumb guy like me can?
    Because not all writers agree on how to write the character, Waid probably being one of those on the extreme side. Some writers believe characters should evolve, some don't. For example, Stan Lee now holds the opinion Doom is not a criminal and wants to clear his name. If it's good enough for Stan, that's good enough for me. It was under his tenure as EIC that we saw stories like MSH #20, FF #116, Astonishing Tales #8 which take the character in different directions other than being flat out evil, moustache twirling villain. There's a pod cast in the Doom appreciation thread where about an hour into Hickman expressed his opinion on Doom.
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 04-12-2018 at 01:24 PM.

  8. #8
    Niffleheim
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    I don't read FF but isn't the fault on the parents? They are the ones who normalized Victor and Valeria is "incredibly smart" but that doesn't mean she is emotionally intelligent too.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray View Post
    Okay.

    How about the part that Doom has dedicated decades of his life to destroy her family for petty reasons, going as far as to torture her brother when he was litle more than a toddler? Why can't the genial Valeria sees he wrongness of that, when even a dumb guy like me can?
    She's like three...


    Quote Originally Posted by DeathGods View Post
    I don't read FF but isn't the fault on the parents? They are the ones who normalized Victor and Valeria is "incredibly smart" but that doesn't mean she is emotionally intelligent too.
    I've always had a problem with that, it doesn't fell right for Reed and Sue to give Valeria so much independence just because she is smart. They give her more freedom than Franklin sometimes. I think part of it is writers struggling to write super-intelligent kids.

    During Robinson's run Sue said that she had given Valeria too much slack and because of her intelligence and it was true, I was happy she said it and seemed like it would change from now on.



    Everything she said was true and I thought it was a turning moment for her, but sadly the stupid Malice subplot came in...
    Last edited by Crimz; 03-12-2018 at 05:01 AM.
    FANTASTIC FOUR #1 out AUGUST 8th! Be sure to check it out!

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    I NEED an Invisible Woman solo! It's got to happen sometime right?......right?

  10. #10
    Mighty Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Yeah I never liked the val likes doom plot. Doom set her mother on fire in front of her and had her watch. Most kids would not be happy about that.

    It's one of the things I hated about the later run ff.
    Last edited by Gaastra; 03-12-2018 at 05:59 AM.

  11. #11
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    I think in part Val's relationship is due to Val feeling she can change Victor for the better. And to a degree, I think you can argue she was right in thinking that. In the least it has greatly minimized the direct conflict Doom has had with her family.

    I think the other part of it is quite frankly I think she knows that because of his legitimate feelings for her, she can manipulate Victor at times. And that can be useful.

    All around, Val having a relationship with Doom has worked both in her favor, and frankly in everyone else's favor.

  12. #12
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    Val likes Doom. Doom likes Val. Doom has had moments of heroics due to his relationship with Val that, ultimately, far outweigh what he did to Franklin. In truth, it is for the better of everyone that Doom has some semi-normal human connection. Furthermore, there are many attributes at play. Val is still a child. Val is a genius, and like her father and other geniuses, can be emotionally hardened. Val respects intelligence a great deal. Val might see Doom as an opportunity to learn from someone who treats her with more respect than a father or mother figure logically would. Considering her relationship with Bentley, she may find bad boys more interesting in general. Val may not view Doom as an enemy in the way one would expect, the same way Reed is often depicted as not seeing Doom as just an enemy. Doom sees Reed as an enemy, buy Reed just kind of accepts Doom for being Doom. It may be scraps of all the above, but as far as I'm concerned it never comes off as forced or stupid.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think in part Val's relationship is due to Val feeling she can change Victor for the better. And to a degree, I think you can argue she was right in thinking that. In the least it has greatly minimized the direct conflict Doom has had with her family.

    I think the other part of it is quite frankly I think she knows that because of his legitimate feelings for her, she can manipulate Victor at times. And that can be useful.

    All around, Val having a relationship with Doom has worked both in her favor, and frankly in everyone else's favor.
    Val has Doom wrapped around her little finger. He adores her and she knows it.

    I think Doom wants a family of his own and at least in this timeline, the Fantastic Four as a whole are the closest he'll ever get. He may hate Reed with all of his heart, but he also seems to realize that those people tolerate and care about him in a way no one else ever will, especially Val.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Doom's her Godfather right?

    That's kind of a big deal in the part of the world that Latveria is supposed to be in.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    Doom's her Godfather right?

    That's kind of a big deal in the part of the world that Latveria is supposed to be in.
    And we see that Doom takes the job very seriously. Doom would never hurt Val. He'd hurt everyone else, but Val? She's safe.

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