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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The biggest ship to ship combat sequence in the original trilogy was the fight at the second Death Star, which involved taking the fleet to point blank range against the opposing fleet - also something that was always avoided with carriers. Star Wars ships, with few exceptions, are not pure WWII carrier stand ins, and no amount of insisting that they are will make it true.
    Hello I said battleships just combined with carriers ignoring what I said in favor of what you wished I said doesn't make it so.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    Hello I said battleships just combined with carriers ignoring what I said in favor of what you wished I said doesn't make it so.
    You see battleships, I see frigates and ships of the line updated for space.

    Plus, presuming that Holdo aimed for the center of mass on the Supremacy (a logical place to aim) she was only off by somewhere from 5 to 10 kilometers. This doesn't seem to be anything that one can break space combat with, unless the enemy is so egotistical as to create a 60 km wide flagship. Plus, in the film, it seemed they knew what the Raddus was about to do yet they still make ships for space combat. That makes me think that everything needed to line up properly for Holdo's hyperspace ram to even have a chance of working. Right distance, big enough ship doing the ram to survive hitting the shields, and a big enough target to be able to attack it when jumping to hyperspace manually.

    The more I think about it, the stupidest thing in this whole affair is the existence of a giant target like the Supremacy in the first place. Big enough to be vulnerable, not big enough to have the shield power to not be vulnerable.
    Last edited by Gray Lensman; 03-31-2018 at 10:52 AM.

  3. #63
    A Gentle Woman Mia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeen View Post
    It doesn't make sense to me why you'd keep your plan, or even backup plan, secret from everyone who could have a role in enabling or undermining it, but I like Laura Dern, so she only annoyed me a little.


    How many generals and admirals broadcast their battle plans to the entire corps/fleet?
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  4. #64
    Mighty Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Not as ridiculous as Jar Jar, but close.
    "Help us George Lucas, you're our only hope"

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    How many generals and admirals broadcast their battle plans to the entire corps/fleet?
    is your question about historical means of communication, fictional counter-examples, or is it a merely rhetorical counter?

    national leaders have addressed entire nations by radio, television, or telegram in the past. in some cases these national leaders were also military leaders. in the original Battlestar Galactica it seemed like there were several times were Adama addressed the entire combined fleet with an audible message.

    in other cases, in ancient warfare a commander usually spoke to their entire combat force because they were usually within shouting range. in the modern era it varies based on means and methods. but usually all of the primary commanders are given written instructions that informs them of what needs to be done.

    she didn't even have to broadcast it to the entire fleet-- although it should have been simple enough to do. all she had to do is follow the example of Mon Mothma and tell everybody in the room the basic plan and the means needed to make that plan come to reality. every other Rebel leader up to that point seemed to do a pretty good job of making their intentions clear.

    if there was concern about a spy (which was ultimately a red herring/loose end) they should have brought that up as an issue earlier AND followed up on it more. you would think that there would also have been more suspicion of Finn as the obvious Imperial defector (wearing a device that helped him track Rey. honestly, I thought that was how the First Order was tracking them, and wondered if Finn and Rose left the planet if they wouldn't send FO landing forces after them as well).

    ultimately, they don't even bother explaining how Hux had them tracked... and nobody in the Rebellion seems show an interest in how to prevent them from doing that again. they simply despair that the FO tracked them through light-speed and assume that it will happen again in the future. if they could disable the tracking method then they could simply go into hyperspace again and lose them altogether.

    at that stage EVERYBODY knew that they were out of apparent options and simply running for their lives. there was no benefit in trying to keep their end game a secret for a couple of reason:

    since it was an old rebel base they were fleeing towards it's possible the First Order already knew about it at some point; it might even be why it was abandoned in the first place. presumably the First Order didn't know about it because they didn't prepare ambushes there. even without that knowledge they could have figured out Holdo's intentions from the very beginning. all she could do is run to a nearby planet and scatter forces from there.

    if they flew in a straight line towards a pre-designated planet the First Order could have simply diverted portions of their fleet to hyperspace to the nearest known planets and set up sweeps to uncover possible Rebel bases... or blow the planets up outright before they got there. then they would be forced to fly through overlapping fields of fire and the Rebellion would get wiped out in a single action. the fact that the First Order contented themselves with direct pursuit and nothing more isn't real impressive on their end either.

    would announcing it to the entire fleet, as you suggested, give away the presumed secrecy of their mission? perhaps... if they sent the message out in a completely uncoded and unscrambled form... which would be a bit weird. most broadcasts are encrypted or coded in some way to make it difficult for other people to listen in.

    but at that point, their situation was supposed to look utterly hopeless anyway. however, if they announced their intentions to go to a specific planet they could have convinced the First Order to send away interception forces at the planet that could have reduced the fleet following them and reducing their immediate danger.

    if they were able to solve the tracking method problem then they could have hyper-spaced out to another location and been in the clear.

    Holdo fails the test of leadership by most practical measurements. she didn't have to be a bumbling idiot... but unfortunately that's how she was written.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    If Holdo did not reveal her plan how were the transport ships fueled up for transport? How were people ready to leave? Cloaking transports means someone has done that job of cloaking too.

    Those who needed to know the plan learnt it in the right time.

    And she would have gotten away with her plan too, if it weren't for the pesky little Poe Dameron and his small band of mutineers.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 04-01-2018 at 07:51 PM.

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    She didn't bother me at all. If anything I would argue she didn't get enough screentime to make her sacrifice even more meaningful. We're pretty much just told near the end that she has a personal relationship to Leia, for instance, but we never really see it.
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  8. #68

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    Holdo bugs me as part of Poe's arc because it honestly feels like they were going to different places with the plot. It feels like she was originally suppose to be a spy but cut that out and forgot to make her sympathetic. Her line about likening Poe comes off as a complete 180 to everything else in the film we see from her. It's one of the problems with the movie. The subversion are just far too many. So her sacrifice feels kind of hollow. Sure it's a cool scene but that's really it. I personally think they should've kept her alive for the next movie. I would've liked to see her an Poe forced to work together by necessity.

  9. #69
    Rebel that Rebels BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    In regards to Holdo not telling Poe about the evacuation plan:

    - Poe was just demoted, so he probably was not in command of any of the flight groups save his own
    - Poe was Leia's go-to, not Holdo's, she seemed more confident to work with her command team
    - Leia stunned him during the mutiny, so she probably came up with the idea to jump to Crait well ahead of the FO tracking them. I have a hunch the plan was signal for refuel/help and go to Crait or another nearby friendly/abandoned system.
    - The active tracking through hyperspace tech the FO had probably put a bugaboo on everyone, so everyone was jumpy. I imagine it was like when sonar was first invented. "How are they tracking us!?"
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  10. #70
    Mighty Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    She didn't bother me at all. If anything I would argue she didn't get enough screentime to make her sacrifice even more meaningful. We're pretty much just told near the end that she has a personal relationship to Leia, for instance, but we never really see it.
    It's kind of one of those things the novels sort of build on a bit; basically they go back to Leia's senate days.
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  11. #71

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    Anyone else Begining to think Holdo reminds them of Vrook and Atris or is that just me?

  12. #72
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    the actor is really good. To this day, I loved her fight as brianne vs the hound.

    my biggest problem with the character is how they kill admiral ackbar off screen to give her prominence.

    that seriously taints the character in my world.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Holdo is victim of bad writing and an uninteresting subplot. She is set up as the inflexible and rigid new leader, who doesn't listen to "the audiences hero" Poe Dameron. Poe is an idiot though and thinks he knows better than everyone else, minus Leia. Holdo pulling rank on Poe was a dick move. What she should've done instead was remind Poe of the chain of command, and that this is a genuine military. Not some rag tag outfit of "rebels with a cause".

    Thinking of Star Trek, BSG and B5, Poe would've been thrown in the brig for his insubordination. But, we needed a mutiny to spice up the uninteresting subplot. So logic had to take a nap.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shades of eternity View Post
    the actor is really good. To this day, I loved her fight as brianne vs the hound.

    my biggest problem with the character is how they kill admiral ackbar off screen to give her prominence.

    that seriously taints the character in my world.
    I think you're confusing her with Captain Phasma's actor, Gwendoline Christie. Laura Dern is her actress; she's been in a lot of stuff (including a lot of work with David Lynch), although she's perhaps best-known "Blockbuster" wise for Dr. Sattler in Jurassic Park I and III.
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  15. #75
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    sorry my bad

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