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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I think it’s Sara Pichelli on FF which is a fantastic choice.

    I agree that art on some books is a turnoff, I just couldn’t get into She-Hulk or Luke Cage because of the art.

    Oh yes I great artist

    I have every faith the visuals will rock

  2. #47
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I think people way over exaggerate Peter's supposed mistreatment at the hands of his fellow heroes.

    "Treated like dirt"? Come on. You'd think that his fellow Avengers took turns spitting on him.
    Well, Redwing pooped on him, so that's not too far off .

    If any of it's over-exaggerated I'd say it's the writers who over-exaggerate the heroes' dislike or distaste for Spider-Man on numerous occasions.
    And besides, this is a guy for whom humiliation has been a running gag since the days of Stan. Getting the short end of the stick has been a constant with Spidey. I don't see that ever changing.
    I'm not saying Spidey should never get the short end of the stick, but modern writers could probably learn to better balance it like Stan and other writers in the past have done.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Is it controversial or unpopular to say that I don't buy all the "you need to put your money where your mouth is and spend your money just to support a book" stuff?

    Comics are very expensive - and that's why most kids can't afford them of course. I'm not a kid. I have a job. So I can buy some.

    But I'll buy something worth of my money : I need the art, I need the story. I need also maybe characters that can get my interest. I need to be satisfied by the reading of a single issue not everytime but reasonably most of the time - not once in a while. I need also long term payoffs if the publisher wants to keep me buying a book for more than one arc or two.

    I'm a consumer, not a supporter. Give me quality. Don't think that I'm a "fan". I won't be a zombie.

    The team on the FF book satisfies me so I'm quite sure I will stay on the book for a while - but nothing is granted.

    And I also do not feel guilty for not reading the book after Hickman left - and it's his run that got me back to reading Marvel comics. I don't feel bad because I'm pretty sure also that the cancellation was not due to the sales numbers.

    So Marvel, give the book the scope and the excellence it deserves. Put the quality where your mouth is. Then you'll get into my wallet.
    Last edited by Abe; 04-10-2018 at 12:55 PM.
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  4. #49
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, FF definitely got cancelled due to boardroom politics, not sales.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    Is it controversial or unpopular to say that I don't buy all the "you need to put your money where your mouth is and spend your money just to support a book" stuff?

    Comics are very expensive - and that's why most kids can't afford them of course. I'm not a kid. I have a job. So I can buy some.

    But I'll buy something worth of my money : I need the art, I need the story. I need also maybe characters that can get my interest. I need to be satisfied by the reading of a single issue not everytime but reasonably most of the time - not once in a while. I need also long term payoffs if the publisher wants to keep me buying a book for more than one arc or two.

    I'm a consumer, not a supporter. Give me quality. Don't think that I'm a "fan". I won't be a zombie.

    The team on the FF book satisfies me so I'm quite sure I will stay on the book for a while - but nothing is granted.

    And I also do not feel guilty for not reading the book after Hickman left - and it's his run that got me back to reading Marvel comics. I don't feel bad because I'm pretty sure also that the cancellation was not due to the sales numbers.

    So Marvel, give the book the scope and the excellence it deserves. Put the quality where your mouth is. Then you'll get into my wallet.
    No one says to continue with a book that you don't find satisfying or like. But if people were saying things like "the FF need to come back" or "Marvel isn't the same without the Fantastic Four" and have no intention in trying the book when it comes out then they were talking a load of crap.

    I know that no one likes every book and we all have our preferences, so I'm not mad when someone doesn't want to pick up a particular book. It's just those who are all talk and say that a book should exist but had no intention in ever purchasing it no matter who the creative are or what the premise is. Those kind of fans piss me off.
    FANTASTIC FOUR #1 out AUGUST 8th! Be sure to check it out!

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  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    If people want the FF to stick around, they need to be buying the book. ....
    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    Is it controversial or unpopular to say that I don't buy all the "you need to put your money where your mouth is and spend your money just to support a book" stuff?.....
    Not so much anymore. Marvel has clearly indicated they are going to publish what they want and when they want as often as they want IF they want to push 'x' book(s).
    It's about the only way to explain why Captain Marvel(Danvers) keeps getting relaunched each time Editorial decides to rebrand the line every 15-18 months. Her book typically sells bad and doesn't take long to drop back down under 20K. Her movie has been on the corporate board for 5-7 years so the visibility is demanded. Punisher routinely sells better for longer, he's one of many characters that will also be kept afloat regardless.

    Fantastic Four is also in that group of IP/copyright/trademarks, like the Punisher, that have a loyal enough base and broader marketing to demand a title. FFs last cancel is well documented to being part of a larger cog in corporate wheels. Not because folks wouldn't keep buying it in the rebranding of #1 cycles.

    About the only titles I feel the "put your money where your mouth is" might, MIGHT, apply are the B/C/D list characters that Marvel will trot out of the barn every so often.
    Red Wolf, Hercules, Black Knight, Falcon, America, Karnak(publishing woes here), Black Bolt, Howling Commandoes of Shield....you get my point I trust?
    Still, Marvel Editorial may decide at the next line wide relaunch that a title doing decent has to make way for something else to get trotted out of the barn and off it goes.

    Ant-Man seems to have enjoyed a few cycles but has been put back to the stable. Spider-woman (Drew) as well.

    I have just lost faith in the company really caring about what sells and is instead involved in a larger corporate synergy that my monthly dollar just can't compete with.
    It's not 1992 or even 2002 anymore, when that actually seemed to still matter.
    "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Priest's JL is definitely not X-Men Gold level of quality, but I imagine the Scott Synder relaunch will put JL back on the top of the charts.
    Really? I found both to be around the same level of bland writing, I legit have a hard time deciding which one I find to be worst.

    Then again, maybe X-Men Gold is arguably the worst one, characters can think for themselves and no fucking Kitty Pryde equivalent telling them what to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    If people want the FF to stick around, they need to be buying the book. I'm sure they will, though, given the team's long absence and the excellent creative team coming on.
    It'd also have to be actualy good, no point of wanting something back and it sucking and keep buying just because it's F4

    I've been digging Priest's JL so I'm not excited at all about Snyder coming on - although, of course, the sales will skyrocket when his run starts.
    I dunno if JL improved, I stopped reading it during the time traveling future kids arc (Just as bland as everything else before it, had enough), only read it again when it got those two tie ins to Metal (Which I'm disapointed on how it gradualy decreased on quality), one was interesting and the other was meh lol.

    I'll probably skip it unless Snyder really impresses with the first issue but it will be cool to have JL and Avengers be two heavy hitting titles again.
    Snyder looks like one of those writters who really likes Batman, so I'm not interested in him writing JL, but hey, I'd be happy if he proves me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Spidey should never be treated too well by the superhero community. It's part of his appeal that he doesn't completely fit in.

    If anything, I always thought it was a mistake to have him on the Avengers as a full-time member. For an individual mission, sure, but full-time means he isn't the outsider anymore and that's really where Spidey belongs as a character.
    Well sure, but characters tend to treat him like an annoying D-lister, and it's not like it was always like that too, it started like that but gradualy faded away to the heroes being more accepting of him (It helps they stopped being pompous douchebags for no reason), to the point most of Marvel Team Up's first volume had him, all they need to do is learn how to balance shit, Spidey can get respect from people and even be on a team and still be an outsider more or less.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Craig View Post
    Not so much anymore. Marvel has clearly indicated they are going to publish what they want and when they want as often as they want IF they want to push 'x' book(s).
    It's about the only way to explain why Captain Marvel(Danvers) keeps getting relaunched each time Editorial decides to rebrand the line every 15-18 months. Her book typically sells bad and doesn't take long to drop back down under 20K. Her movie has been on the corporate board for 5-7 years so the visibility is demanded. Punisher routinely sells better for longer, he's one of many characters that will also be kept afloat regardless.
    Carol has never been a huge seller but she hasn't always been this low. The current Captain Marvel iteration sold decently for a few years and then Civil War II seemed to kill any momentum she was making. I'm not sure why Marvel thought making her the antagonist of a major event but then it seemed to work for a certain Tony Stark.

    The fact that she sold well enough at one time probably helps justify their decision to keep it going which I concede is down to having a movie coming out but then it strikes me that everyone that argued against Marvel's recent output with the argument that we should think of the poor movie fans that are apparentlygoing straight from theaters to comic book stores and being disappointed by how different they are can't really resent the continued publication of Captain Marvel and yet somehow they do.

    Fantastic Four is also in that group of IP/copyright/trademarks, like the Punisher, that have a loyal enough base and broader marketing to demand a title. FFs last cancel is well documented to being part of a larger cog in corporate wheels. Not because folks wouldn't keep buying it in the rebranding of #1 cycles.
    "Well documented" as in one interview by Jonathan Hickman. The interview he stated that the reason for the cancellation is that the movie was a creative and commercial flop. That doesn't match the narrative that Fantastic Four was cancelled purely because of Marvel not owning the movie rights but suggests that matters less than whether the rights holders make a successful movie they hope will garner renewed interest in the books.

    The key words there should be renewed interest as the book has been doing poorly for a long time even with some talented names working on it. Hickman was a blip and one they haven't been able to replicate. A successful FF movie might have been enough for Marvel to keep the book going but if was selling well then it wouldn't have been cancelled at regardless of how successful the Fox movie was or who owned the rights to it.

    I have just lost faith in the company really caring about what sells and is instead involved in a larger corporate synergy that my monthly dollar just can't compete with.
    It's not 1992 or even 2002 anymore, when that actually seemed to still matter.
    Well Marvel have just had a long period where the core team of Avengers are mostly legacy heroes while the movies very strongly stick with the classic characters. Guardians has been cancelled even though it's probably their biggest movie property at this point and they produce more X-Men books then any other property despite not owning the movie rights. Corporate synergy is a thing but it's no where near as all encompassing as people argue.

    While there are other factors such as a book being critically acclaimed or netting them money in other ways such as Scholastic (which are basically sales) that will keep a book alive the main thing that keeps the book alive is sales or one form or another. It's just that what sells doesn't always tally with the internet hive mind thinks sells.
    Last edited by Orbus; 04-10-2018 at 04:09 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    Is it controversial or unpopular to say that I don't buy all the "you need to put your money where your mouth is and spend your money just to support a book" stuff?
    Yes and NO.

    When we look at popular characters like Wally West & Cassandra Cain get tossed away and erased in favor of PETS.

    When you got guys like Static, John Stewart, JSA and so on-who get EVERY excuse to not be used or given a one shot let alone a mini. While you see Carol Danvers & Cyborg get shot after shot.

    When you got the ENTIRE Young Justice cartoon cast MIA or trashed in comics and a collection of new folks that NO ONE asked for gets shots.

    You are 100% correct.

    What many mean around here is for fans of "certain" fanbases, certain youtubers, certain store owners and anti-diversity squad who made life MISERABLE for a lot of fans & Marvel employees. It's put up or be quiet time for them.

    That is all it boils down to. No one wants to hear about budgets or anything you rightfully pointed out. Because when it came to certain books-those reasons were ignored.

    For they got told because they were a certain race or sexual identity-it was their DUTY to buy certain books no matter how bad they were or what their financial situation was.

    So if Fantastic Four stalls with low sales-it means one of two things. Like Hal Jordan not everyone cares for them. Or bashed fans took their money and LEFT like the John Stewart fans. I think a lot of fed up folks are going to keep their wallets closed.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    Is it controversial or unpopular to say that I don't buy all the "you need to put your money where your mouth is and spend your money just to support a book" stuff?

    Comics are very expensive - and that's why most kids can't afford them of course. I'm not a kid. I have a job. So I can buy some.

    But I'll buy something worth of my money : I need the art, I need the story. I need also maybe characters that can get my interest. I need to be satisfied by the reading of a single issue not everytime but reasonably most of the time - not once in a while. I need also long term payoffs if the publisher wants to keep me buying a book for more than one arc or two.

    I'm a consumer, not a supporter. Give me quality. Don't think that I'm a "fan". I won't be a zombie.

    The team on the FF book satisfies me so I'm quite sure I will stay on the book for a while - but nothing is granted.

    And I also do not feel guilty for not reading the book after Hickman left - and it's his run that got me back to reading Marvel comics. I don't feel bad because I'm pretty sure also that the cancellation was not due to the sales numbers.

    So Marvel, give the book the scope and the excellence it deserves. Put the quality where your mouth is. Then you'll get into my wallet.
    I totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    No one says to continue with a book that you don't find satisfying or like. But if people were saying things like "the FF need to come back" or "Marvel isn't the same without the Fantastic Four" and have no intention in trying the book when it comes out then they were talking a load of crap.

    I know that no one likes every book and we all have our preferences, so I'm not mad when someone doesn't want to pick up a particular book. It's just those who are all talk and say that a book should exist but had no intention in ever purchasing it no matter who the creative are or what the premise is. Those kind of fans piss me off.
    While I think you may have a point, to a degree, there's also something to be said for fans of something not having to endure droll runs simply to support a character or team.
    Dr. Strange is most likely my favorite character of Marvel.
    But ever since his return, every run has been increasingly more of a turn off.

    While I would love to see Dr. Strange reach the heights of the Stern and Thomas runs again, Marvel has been giving us a character that is Dr. Strange in name only.

    And with prices the way they are, I'm not going to buy a Dr. Strange comic just so it can be a 'seller'.
    Especially when Marvel could get the idea that it's a seller for the wrong reasons.
    Currently reading: Legion of Super-Heroes ('80s), New Teen Titans ('80s)

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    I totally agree.



    While I think you may have a point, to a degree, there's also something to be said for fans of something not having to endure droll runs simply to support a character or team.
    Dr. Strange is most likely my favorite character of Marvel.
    But ever since his return, every run has been increasingly more of a turn off.

    While I would love to see Dr. Strange reach the heights of the Stern and Thomas runs again, Marvel has been giving us a character that is Dr. Strange in name only.

    And with prices the way they are, I'm not going to buy a Dr. Strange comic just so it can be a 'seller'.
    Especially when Marvel could get the idea that it's a seller for the wrong reasons.
    That's not what I said.

    I said that people who have been supposedly "missing the FF" but won't even try it when it's released are a load of crap. Not people who try a book but don't like it. I'd never advocate continuing reading a book when it's not doing it for you, even if it were your favorite character.
    FANTASTIC FOUR #1 out AUGUST 8th! Be sure to check it out!

    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

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  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    That's not what I said.

    I said that people who have been supposedly "missing the FF" but won't even try it when it's released are a load of crap. Not people who try a book but don't like it. I'd never advocate continuing reading a book when it's not doing it for you, even if it were your favorite character.
    Ah, I misunderstood.
    In that case, I agree.
    Currently reading: Legion of Super-Heroes ('80s), New Teen Titans ('80s)

  13. #58
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    "Well documented" as in one interview by Jonathan Hickman. The interview he stated that the reason for the cancellation is that the movie was a creative and commercial flop. That doesn't match the narrative that Fantastic Four was cancelled purely because of Marvel not owning the movie rights but suggests that matters less than whether the rights holders make a successful movie they hope will garner renewed interest in the books.
    Uh, wasn't it cancelled before Fant4stic even came out?

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Uh, wasn't it cancelled before Fant4stic even came out?
    Was it? My memory is kinda fuzzy on that period but you could be right.

    If that's the case then it makes everyone using Hickman's interview as proof positive of anything even more suspect. Then again I do recall that many fans thought that the FF would get a title in Marvel's then upcoming publishing initiative. It was more than halfway through Secret Wars that it was publicly announced they were retiring the FF. It's possible Marvel and Hickman himself thought that would be the case until they made their decision since we know half way through Secret Wars was retooled as a send off for the team.
    Last edited by Orbus; 04-11-2018 at 04:27 PM.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Hickman's says many things : https://www.newsarama.com/35805-why-...art-again.html

    The decision was known "a year or so" in advance that there won't be a FF book past 2015. He blames the bad quality of the movies - but the decision predates the release of the last one. So it was about the rights and Fox not dealing well with the property and hurting it.

    Other interesting stuffs about the relevance of the series and its concept, its ability to sell - depending also on the execution. And last but not least what he thinks of the strategy to create a desire by cancelling the book.

    ”That kind of thinking runs contrary to everything I believe in as a professional storyteller,” Hickman explained. “It comes from a place of manipulation where an attempt is made to make the reader desire something through denial. It's hacky. It's suboptimal. It's the central tenet of all sh---y dating advice. If you want someone to care about a book, write a story they care about.”
    Last edited by Abe; 04-11-2018 at 04:55 PM.
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