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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    X-Men and Avengers have done their fair share of weird things to their continuity too. Like the infamous return of the founding X-Men's younger selves which should have brought issues to the timeline and thanks to their exposure to the current era no one really knows how they will affect time in the present if they were to return to the past. Of course they could have wiped their memories clean and fix the problem but that's doesn't seem to be an option for some reason. Instead for a couple of extra bucks we're getting this big crossover even that may or may not alter things. And let's not forget what happened to Captain America becoming a Nazi and instead of reverting things back to the way they were we now have a alternate version of Steve Rogers who was good running around instead. And I believe some sort of weirdness was done to Iron Man but I forget what exactly it was and hwo they even rectified it.
    All of what you're talking about has been explained in Marvel continuity.

    The O5 X-Men will eventually return to their time and its been explained that they weren't missed because some new version of the Brotherhood went back in time and masqueraded as them in their absence. Also, the version of Steve Rogers we have now is just the regular version having returned. The Nazi Steve Rogers was the one who was turned into an alternate version.
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  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think Devin Grayson was pointed in a right direction, but I don't think she went far enough.

    The "mentor to young heroes" thing is a viable purpose and direction for the Titans. But she didn't bring in enough new members and there was very little focus on actually training those new heroes (several of whom weren't even new or inexperienced, like Jesse Quick!) it was largely just "Hey, remember this villain from decades ago? Who wants to watch them fight the Titans for the millionth time!!??"

    But I do think she was pointed the right way, so I'd be down for your idea here. If her stories had actually reflected the new purpose and status quo, we likely wouldn't be discussing the sad state of this franchise today.
    I mean, again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with bringing back old villains for stories. If a writer has a good idea for a Titans story where Deathstroke is the villain, then why not do it? But yes, there does need to be an influx of new ideas and characters into the franchise to keep things fresh.
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  3. #138
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    All of what you're talking about has been explained in Marvel continuity.

    The O5 X-Men will eventually return to their time and its been explained that they weren't missed because some new version of the Brotherhood went back in time and masqueraded as them in their absence. Also, the version of Steve Rogers we have now is just the regular version having returned. The Nazi Steve Rogers was the one who was turned into an alternate version.
    I was referring tot he Brotherhood who replaced them. I am not so sure whether anything has been changed for Captain America it still reads like nothing has changed for him.
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  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    I was referring tot he Brotherhood who replaced them. I am not so sure whether anything has been changed for Captain America it still reads like nothing has changed for him.
    Yeah, but the very fact that we have the adult versions of the characters around means that they do eventually go back. So, its not really a change to the actual continuity of the Marvel Universe. It'll just be explained as time travel. That's not nearly the same as the headache DC's induced by cherrypicking what they want to be in continuity and pursuing controversial directions with characters that are completely at odds with their past history.
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  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yeah, but the very fact that we have the adult versions of the characters around means that they do eventually go back. So, its not really a change to the actual continuity of the Marvel Universe. It'll just be explained as time travel. That's not nearly the same as the headache DC's induced by cherrypicking what they want to be in continuity and pursuing controversial directions with characters that are completely at odds with their past history.
    It still doesn't make make it any better that it took so long for an explanation to come out. And also by turning Iceman gay Marvel undermined their history quite a bit and divided their fanbase even more as people war over dubious situations that many are fighting tooth and nail to prove as fact for the change. Cherry picking is bad sure but meddling with history to cause an uproar is just as worst. And technically Marvel has also done the same thing by putting characters in directions that are at odds with their past history like Iron Man recruiting Riri Williams despite his experience in Civil War I.
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  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    It still doesn't make make it any better that it took so long for an explanation to come out. And also by turning Iceman gay Marvel undermined their history quite a bit and divided their fanbase even more as people war over dubious situations that many are fighting tooth and nail to prove as fact for the change. Cherry picking is bad sure but meddling with history to cause an uproar is just as worst. And technically Marvel has also done the same thing by putting characters in directions that are at odds with their past history like Iron Man recruiting Riri Williams despite his experience in Civil War I.
    I think you're conflating when things are merely somewhat inconsistent in terms of characterization with when things are completely at odds and mutually exclusive, as in one precludes the other simply because it exists. Its possible that Iceman was always gay, but was either closeted or in denial to himself. There are certainly cases of that happening. Its possible that Iron Man recruited Riri even though it does seem inconsistent with past behavior.

    However, what DC did with the New 52 was flat out make certain things they said still happened impossible to have happened. For example, the whole of GL canon couldn't have continued on as it did without events from Superman's continuity also being canon because the destruction of Coast City, the very thing that forced Hal down the path to becoming Parallax, was the result of the Death of Superman saga. There are countless other examples. Furthermore, there are things that fans want back now in Rebirth, but have been made impossible. Cyborg's Titans history can't have happened if he also started out on the League, because the point of his Titans history is that that's where he started.

    So, in this regard, I'm sorry but Marvel is better than DC.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 04-16-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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  7. #142
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The X-Men and the Avengers don’t seem to have any problems with maintaining their continuity and history and actually attract readers while doing so. If anything, it’s constant tinkering and messing with teams’ histories that put DC at a disadvantage. And speaking of turning away fans with mind numbing retcons, how many fans have been saying that altering the history of the League and the Titans was something that turned them off? A lot.
    No....it's super convoluted. Every time I tried a X-book, I was turned off by how overly bloated it was. Titans or any DC property for that matter, doesn't need a headache inducing continuity.

    Also you can never please once you pander to continuity fans. Everyone has their own take and some fans hate an iteration of the character that another fan likes. Personally speaking, I won't be sad if NTT version of Wally is never referenced again.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    No....it's super convoluted. Every time I tried a X-book, I was turned off by how overly bloated it was. Titans or any DC property for that matter, doesn't need a headache inducing continuity.
    Okay. That's your personal experience. I have no problem picking up an X-book and enjoying it. I have no problem picking up an Avengers book with the massive backlog of continuity they have going on. The idea that continuity inhibits new readers when these books specifically craft jumping on points for new readers all the time is just a straw man and its inherently untrue.

    Jump on X-Men Red or any of the other X-books Marvel is publishing now and read it. You don't need to be an expert in X-Men continuity (I'm not) to enjoy those books.

    Also you can never please once you pander to continuity fans. Everyone has their own take and some fans hate an iteration of the character that another fan likes. Personally speaking, I won't be sad if NTT version of Wally is never referenced again.
    Yes you can. Comics do it all the time. Priest's Deathstroke has brought back so much continuity from the character's adventures in the 80s and 90s and its one of the most celebrated books coming out of Rebirth.

    Also, as a side note, Williamson already teased that the NTT was part of his research in crafting the Flash War arc.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 04-16-2018 at 04:04 PM.
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  9. #144
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    Nightwing is recruiting an all-new team for DC's Titans ongoing spinning out of Justice League: No Justice. As first announced at WonderCon, Dick Grayson will lead a team comprised of Donna Troy, Raven, Beast Boy, Miss Martian, and Steel (a.k.a. Natasha Irons) to deal with a "Metagene pandemic." A seventh, unnamed team member is teased in the Titans #23 cover art.

    Long-time series writer Dan Abnett will be joined by artist Brandon Peterson beginning with July's Titans #23. Peterson and Ryan Sook will both be drawing covers.
    No Wally, Roy or Garth? That's killed my interest in Titans.
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    It's a superhero costume. It's the original superhero costume. It's not real clothing, it's not bound to the ever-changing fashion trends of real life. It's nothing like real life clothing. How exactly can it become outdated?"

  10. #145
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I mean, again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with bringing back old villains for stories. If a writer has a good idea for a Titans story where Deathstroke is the villain, then why not do it? But yes, there does need to be an influx of new ideas and characters into the franchise to keep things fresh.
    Generally I agree with that. In fact, I'm a big fan of building on what's come before and I think recurring characters enrich a property. I mean, who the hell was Deathstroke in his first appearance? Just some silly pirate-looking mercenary. But he kept coming back and now he's considered one of, arguably *the* biggest badass at DC. So I'm all for recurring concepts.

    Usually.

    In the case of the Titans, I think we have a exception to that general rule right now. I think if I were running the title (as an editor or whatever) I'd make sure that every story and plot and villain for the first 12-18 months is purely original. The Titans need an influx of freshness, and while we all might argue about what that actually means I don't think very many of us disagree with the fact that we need *something* new. And if a writer doesn't have any stories to tell other than "Trigon again!" or "Slade again!" or "betrayed again!" they're not the right fit for the book right now.

    But even then, after that 12-18 month period? Sure, do a story involving Brother Blood or Trigon or Doctor Light or whatever, if you feel like you absolutely have to. It better be a hell of a story and it better say something new that hasn't been said ten times already, but if you've got a new story? Great. Just do new things with original characters first.
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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Generally I agree with that. In fact, I'm a big fan of building on what's come before and I think recurring characters enrich a property. I mean, who the hell was Deathstroke in his first appearance? Just some silly pirate-looking mercenary. But he kept coming back and now he's considered one of, arguably *the* biggest badass at DC. So I'm all for recurring concepts.

    Usually.

    In the case of the Titans, I think we have a exception to that general rule right now. I think if I were running the title (as an editor or whatever) I'd make sure that every story and plot and villain for the first 12-18 months is purely original. The Titans need an influx of freshness, and while we all might argue about what that actually means I don't think very many of us disagree with the fact that we need *something* new. And if a writer doesn't have any stories to tell other than "Trigon again!" or "Slade again!" or "betrayed again!" they're not the right fit for the book right now.

    But even then, after that 12-18 month period? Sure, do a story involving Brother Blood or Trigon or Doctor Light or whatever, if you feel like you absolutely have to. It better be a hell of a story and it better say something new that hasn't been said ten times already, but if you've got a new story? Great. Just do new things with original characters first.
    Especially regarding these two dead horses.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Generally I agree with that. In fact, I'm a big fan of building on what's come before and I think recurring characters enrich a property. I mean, who the hell was Deathstroke in his first appearance? Just some silly pirate-looking mercenary. But he kept coming back and now he's considered one of, arguably *the* biggest badass at DC. So I'm all for recurring concepts.

    Usually.

    In the case of the Titans, I think we have a exception to that general rule right now. I think if I were running the title (as an editor or whatever) I'd make sure that every story and plot and villain for the first 12-18 months is purely original. The Titans need an influx of freshness, and while we all might argue about what that actually means I don't think very many of us disagree with the fact that we need *something* new. And if a writer doesn't have any stories to tell other than "Trigon again!" or "Slade again!" or "betrayed again!" they're not the right fit for the book right now.

    But even then, after that 12-18 month period? Sure, do a story involving Brother Blood or Trigon or Doctor Light or whatever, if you feel like you absolutely have to. It better be a hell of a story and it better say something new that hasn't been said ten times already, but if you've got a new story? Great. Just do new things with original characters first.
    I just think that approach might be a little too reminiscent of what DC had with the New 52, with editors constantly telling creators that such and such characters were off limits. I'd ultimately like a creator to bring something new to the title, but I think in order to be good, it needs to be organic. It needs to be the writer's idea to bring something new. And if a writer wants to write a story about Brother Blood and not only that, but make it a Sinestro Corps War moment for him as a villain, then I'd be all for it.

    I think the problem with current management of the Titans is the same as was the problem with Marvel's management of the Fantastic Four. Marvel didn't know what to do with the FF or wanted to take focus off of them, so they cancelled the title post-Secret Wars and tried to absorb some of the core characters of that franchise into other ones (Thing to Guardians, Torch to Inhumans, Doom to Iron Man). However, all that did was alienate the fans of that franchise and lock away potential stories for that time. So much so that DC made a power play to fill that void with the Terrifics.

    The current state of the Titans is simply because I don't think the current editorial of DC has any faith that those characters can attract an audience as Titans or as Titans villains, when that's pretty far from the truth. Ergo, we have attempts to put the Titans characters elsewhere like Cyborg in the League and making Deathstroke just another Batman villain, even though both moves have diminished the characters in question.

    DC editorial right now (and some fans even) have the attitude that DC is pretty much just boiled down to the Superman, Batman, and Justice League franchises (and maybe GL, if only because of Johns) and that's all there is to the publisher and everything else is not important. That needs to change.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 04-16-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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  13. #148
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The current state of the Titans is simply because I don't think the current editorial of DC has any faith that those characters can attract an audience as Titans or as Titans villains, when that's pretty far from the truth. Ergo, we have attempts to put the Titans characters elsewhere like Cyborg in the League and making Deathstroke just another Batman villain, even though both moves have diminished the characters in question.
    Unfortunately, I can't say I totally blame them at the moment. Everything they've done since JLA/Titans/Devin Grayson hasn't caught on very well, outside of Johns (who throws off the math because his name pulls sales). And yeah, that's due to mismanagement and low quality....that's been a problem for twenty years.....but if what they've been trying isn't working (through their own fault or market trends), try something different.

    I think the brand has caught the same stink that plagued Hawkman for so long. DC has mismanaged the Titans for a long time now, bouncing from shock value "It's all different you're gonna like it now we promise!!" to "You remember Wolfman? Well here's the exact same stuff but not told nearly as well and it hasn't been original in twenty-something years!!" The Titans are either a group of adult heroes or a bunch of teenagers, depending on what week you're looking at......no wonder fans aren't responding. The whole brand is a nebulous mess.

    And if a writer has the greatest Brother Blood story in him just waiting to be told.....great. He can tell it in 12-18 months. I think DC needs to send a message to the fans that says "We're going to respect the Titans' history, but the past is the past and we're moving organically forward." Starting off with Brother Blood is only going to send the message that DC is going to, once again, remain stuck in the past. So if a writer has the greatest Brother Blood story ever, he's gotta show that his/her run is going to be more than just another Wolfman cover band doing crap versions of the greatest hits. I mean, even Johns did a few new things before jumping into Sinestro Corps War.

    DC editorial right now (and some fans even) have the attitude that DC is pretty much just boiled down to the Superman, Batman, and Justice League franchises (and maybe GL, if only because of Johns) and that's all there is to the publisher and everything else is not important. That needs to change.
    DC has always been built as a hierarchy, but I agree; there's a lot more to DC than the Trinity, League, and Harley Quinn/Lantern/whatever the hot commodity of the day is. But let's give them some credit; they're trying to branch out with some new titles and characters, and they gave a whole bunch of people a shot over the last few years. Granted, it was often poorly thought out and/or poorly executed, but at least they've made a few attempts. Marvel seems to be falling into the same trap; if it's not the MCU, it hasn't gotten much love lately.
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  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And if a writer has the greatest Brother Blood story in him just waiting to be told.....great. He can tell it in 12-18 months. I think DC needs to send a message to the fans that says "We're going to respect the Titans' history, but the past is the past and we're moving organically forward." Starting off with Brother Blood is only going to send the message that DC is going to, once again, remain stuck in the past. So if a writer has the greatest Brother Blood story ever, he's gotta show that his/her run is going to be more than just another Wolfman cover band doing crap versions of the greatest hits. I mean, even Johns did a few new things before jumping into Sinestro Corps War.
    But that's exactly the thing. DC hasn't been respecting the past. That's what has fans so upset. People don't care if Cyborg is on the League now, but they want his Titans history back as part of his backstory. So, yes, move forward but there's a balance to be struck between that and respecting the past. After all, even though Green Lantern has gone back to being a middling seller and they've moved past the emotional spectrum, all of the elements from Johns's run haven't been erased from continuity and it would be foolish for them to do so because a future writer can mine those elements for stories.

    DC has always been built as a hierarchy, but I agree; there's a lot more to DC than the Trinity, League, and Harley Quinn/Lantern/whatever the hot commodity of the day is. But let's give them some credit; they're trying to branch out with some new titles and characters, and they gave a whole bunch of people a shot over the last few years. Granted, it was often poorly thought out and/or poorly executed, but at least they've made a few attempts. Marvel seems to be falling into the same trap; if it's not the MCU, it hasn't gotten much love lately.
    The Titans used to be in the upper echelons of that hierarchy and they're still one of the most recognizable superhero teams in the DCU. That's why DC editorial needs to treat these characters as if they're independent of the League's orbit and not erase their most iconic, character-defining stories from the timeline. You'd think that'd be obvious.
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  15. #150
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    In the case of the Titans, I think we have a exception to that general rule right now. I think if I were running the title (as an editor or whatever) I'd make sure that every story and plot and villain for the first 12-18 months is purely original. The Titans need an influx of freshness, and while we all might argue about what that actually means I don't think very many of us disagree with the fact that we need *something* new. And if a writer doesn't have any stories to tell other than "Trigon again!" or "Slade again!" or "betrayed again!" they're not the right fit for the book right now.

    But even then, after that 12-18 month period? Sure, do a story involving Brother Blood or Trigon or Doctor Light or whatever, if you feel like you absolutely have to. It better be a hell of a story and it better say something new that hasn't been said ten times already, but if you've got a new story? Great. Just do new things with original characters first.
    I agree with that. Titans desperately needs some freshness to it and it also needs a steady, guiding hand to rebuild the franchise by setting up a firm foundation that later writers can then build on. As an example: Jurgens and Tomasi have done exactly that with Superman during Rebirth giving Bendis a firm foundation to build his run on. DC needs to find a writer for Titans that can do the same.
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