View Poll Results: How do you see the Titans in the DCU?

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  • Their own thing, almost equal footing with League

    50 58.82%
  • Junior Justice League, joining the League is considered a 'promotion'

    35 41.18%
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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    If you don't get why the JLA are together then I honestly can't help you. It was a team formed by bringing all of DC's marquee heroes together to help tackle threats that they couldn't on their own. That is a very well defined and focused mission statement. What else do you want?
    I know why the JLA was formed. But coming together to tackle threats you can't on your own is a very generic mission statement. So, the JLA doesn't have a monopoly on that reasoning to be together. Other teams are allowed to form under that mission statement too.

    Well Alpha Flight was a team of Canadian heroes, wasn't it? That was the reason they came together originally.
    And its currently led by the very American Carol Danvers. So, they didn't stick to that mission statement now did they?

    And the Defenders came together as a team to fight some specific threat, but originally they were still Avengers characters. Teams like that are just spin-offs of the bigger teams. Like how JLI or JL Detroit were spin-offs of the main JLA team.
    The Defenders first appeared in 1971. The only member of the founding Defenders who was an Avenger before founding the Defenders was the Hulk. Namor and Dr. Strange, the other two founding members, wouldn't join the Avengers until many years after that: Namor in 1985 and Dr. Strange in 2010. And they included a lot of rotating members who had never been on the Avengers. So, no, the Defenders was not just a spin off of the Avengers.

    These kind of teams come together for a specific reason usually and then over time that might change to try and increase sales again or the book will end, but are the Titans a spin-off book?
    No, they're not. Simple as that.

    You completely missed the point I was making. In the JSA they aren't divided into a lesser JSA-like team (Titans) and a top JSA-like team (JLA). It is all the JSA. They don't "graduate" to a higher level. So the JSA isn't diminished by how it is structured. Sure some JSA members get accepted into the JLA because the JLA is always going to be the marquee heroes team, but that doesn't effect the JSA in how it is built or operates.
    Have you...ever read any like 80s or 90s Titans comics? Because you realize your exact logic about the JSA is also what applies to the Titans too, right?

    If we were to apply your logic about the Titans across the board, then we'd be compelled to find that both the Titans and the JSA are lesser teams because they aren't the marquee teams and they both have different "versions" of League characters. However, you seem to be applying a double standard here.

    The Titans aren't a "lesser JLA-like team." They are their own team, with their own original members, their own original villains, and their own original stories, just like the JSA is their own team. They've faced things that the League has never faced. They've done things that the League has never done. And for a good long while (like a whole decade), their adventures were more popular than the League's adventures. So, because one member of the Titans made a lasting jump from the Titans to the League doesn't mean they try to "graduate" to the League. Wally wanted to take over for Barry so he went to the League because Barry was on the League, but (1) that doesn't mean he forgot about the Titans because, again, he still served as a Titan several times and (2) it didn't impact how the Titans operated because they were still their own team doing their own things. And also, Dick, Donna, Roy, Garth, et. al. are not sidekicks anymore. They transcended that role a long time ago. In fact, it was being on the Titans that allowed them to do that.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 04-15-2018 at 09:21 AM.
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  2. #77
    The Son of Suns Clairaudient Freedom Soldier's Avatar
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    The Titans should be the Youngblood x Planetary of the DCU ...
    Top Artists Acuña, A Adams, Allred, Asrar, Bradshaw, V Bridges, JS Campbell, Charest, C Chiang, Coipel, TS Daniel, Darrow, A Davis, Derington, Dodson, G Frank, Googe, G Ha, T Harris, Hawthorne, C Henry, A Hughes, Immonen, Larraz, Lupacchino, Maguire, Manapul, P Medina, McGuinness, McKone, J Molina, D Mora, SG Murphy, Opeña, B Peterson, Pichelli, I Reis, A Robinson, Rude, Shaner, K Shannon, RB Silva, Skroce, Sook, Sprouse, Torque, D Williams, Woods!

  3. #78
    Incredible Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I know why the JLA was formed. But coming together to tackle threats you can't on your own is a very generic mission statement. So, the JLA doesn't have a monopoly on that reasoning to be together. Other teams are allowed to form under that mission statement too.
    True, they don't, but because theyre most popular and prioritized, that means everyone else needs something extra to stand out. If someone makes another government black ops team, I'll be asking what's the difference with Suicide Squad since they cover that base

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    If we were to apply your logic about the Titans across the board, then we'd be compelled to find that both the Titans and the JSA are lesser teams because they aren't the marquee teams and they both have different "versions" of League characters. However, you seem to be applying a double standard here.
    They are. They are lesser. At least in my eyes. I have no idea why people want JSA back since the younger JLA cover everything. I like them better in Earth-2 because then they have a whole different world to save.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The Titans aren't a "lesser JLA-like team." They are their own team, with their own original members, their own original villains, and their own original stories, just like the JSA is their own team. They've faced things that the League has never faced. They've done things that the League has never done. And for a good long while (like a whole decade), their adventures were more popular than the League's adventures. So, because one member of the Titans made a lasting jump from the Titans to the League doesn't mean they try to "graduate" to the League. Wally wanted to take over for Barry so he went to the League because Barry was on the League, but (1) that doesn't mean he forgot about the Titans because, again, he still served as a Titan several times and (2) it didn't impact how the Titans operated because they were still their own team doing their own things. And also, Dick, Donna, Roy, Garth, et. al. are not sidekicks anymore. They transcended that role a long time ago. In fact, it was being on the Titans that allowed them to do that.
    But does DC view them that way? Does DC want them to be a different but equal team? That's not the impression I'm getting.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 04-15-2018 at 03:22 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I have no idea why people want JSA back since the younger JLA cover everything.
    The same reason anyone has liked any superhero team ever: the characters. Not everyone worships the Big 6, not everyone who loves them prefers them to some or all of the JSA and plenty who prefer the JLA still love members of the team.

    Not to mention in their 2000's incarnation, the only one which matters to me personally, they were a team that did have a unique niche going for them, being the preservers of legacy with a mixed generational team.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    True, they don't, but because theyre most popular and prioritized, that means everyone else needs something extra to stand out. If someone makes another government black ops team, I'll be asking what's the difference with Suicide Squad since they cover that base
    There are already several government black-ops teams in the DCU: Checkmate, Knightwatch, and SHADE just to name a few. So, no, they don't really need something "extra" to exist. The Titans exist because they don't want to be in the League and want to be their own team.

    They are. They are lesser. At least in my eyes. I have no idea why people want JSA back since the younger JLA cover everything. I like them better in Earth-2 because then they have a whole different world to save.
    Then you should go back and read some JSA comics. Like someone else said on here, not everyone wants the same flavor of ice cream every day of the week. Not everyone wants to read about the same team. The JSA and the Titans offer their own unique flavor of super heroics just by virtue of being different characters.

    But does DC view them that way? Does DC want them to be a different but equal team? That's not the impression I'm getting.
    Whether or not they do currently is kind of irrelevant. The point is that they should and did for a long time and investing in the franchise is what brought it success, so much so that it outshone the JLA.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 04-15-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    The JSA have an easier out than the Titans because they worked just fine on Earth-2 where they didn't have to share space with the JLA. They can be the guardians of legacy there (because the legacies started to be involved even before Crisis) AND get to be the main team on their own Earth. Jay can be called the Fastest Man Alive and have it be 100% true because Barry and Wally wouldn't be regular presences there barring Multiversal crossovers. The JSA gets to be on an Earth where time passes, heroes age and some retire/die and get replaced by their kids or other legacies. That's not something the main Earth can really do, so they instantly stand apart.

    Provided a JSA book is published, the different flavors of ice cream thing would still be there even if they were on an alternate Earth like they used to be. In fact, more books in general set on different Earths would be a good thing. The Multiverse is too cool a concept to go to waste, and the JSA is the most viable property to start utilizing it.

  7. #82
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    What the Titans need is a good writter that stablish solid dynamics beetween teamates and isn't afraid of exploring territory that doesn't involve Trigon or Judas Contract (althought having Slade annoying then from time to time wouldn't be unwelcome, but keep those short and self-contained), now this is not easy or simple, specially when people's opinions of good vary and the obssesion that DC seems to have for the NTT (i love that era but it shouldn't be the all to be for the franchise). That being said, having mission stament won't guarantee anything, JLA has that, but since Busiek story of JLA vs Crime Syndicate from 2004-2005, i had a hard time coming across with good stuff (last year i read all the JL main book from 1997 until 2017 and some spin-offs, so i know what i'm talking about), for being the most popular DC team they are just keeping thenselves around for the popularity of their characthers alone and Titans is going througth the same problems with some spike of quality here and there (Krul's was good as far as i'm concerned ). Even if DC finds a mission stament beyond "this charachters and series were popular so we keep then around around" (aka almost every team book of DC from the last 10-12 years) aren't going to amped up quality magically, so again, good writting and good team dynamics, the essence of what made a good team book is what this guys need, otherwise we are just running in the same vicious circle.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I know why the JLA was formed. But coming together to tackle threats you can't on your own is a very generic mission statement. So, the JLA doesn't have a monopoly on that reasoning to be together. Other teams are allowed to form under that mission statement too.
    It isn't generic if they are the team that is defining it. Derivatives of it would be generic, like the Titans. It is a very basic mission statement, but it is well defined because it easily and simply explains why these characters are together on a team and focuses their pulled resources on achieving that goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And its currently led by the very American Carol Danvers. So, they didn't stick to that mission statement now did they?
    Yeah, because the original team was cancelled decades ago because it couldn't sustain a book. So they keep the name and just apply it to other teams. They did the same with the Defenders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The Defenders first appeared in 1971. The only member of the founding Defenders who was an Avenger before founding the Defenders was the Hulk. Namor and Dr. Strange, the other two founding members, wouldn't join the Avengers until many years after that: Namor in 1985 and Dr. Strange in 2010. And they included a lot of rotating members who had never been on the Avengers. So, no, the Defenders was not just a spin off of the Avengers.
    I'd still call it a spin-off of the Avengers because it was taking a tremendously popular Avengers hero in the Hulk at that time and giving him his own team. Namor, Dr Strange, or Valkyrie weren't selling the team. Hulk was. It is why he was positioned in the center of most of their covers. Sure, I guess if you could say it is similar to Batman and the Outsiders as a team where Batman was selling a team with lesser heroes on it, but the Outsiders tended to focus on more covert threats to the JL compared to how the Defenders were doing the exact same thing the Avengers were doing. Although the comic eventually ran its course and the creator didn't know what else to do with the team. So the series ended. The Titans are in that situation now where no one knows what to do with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    No, they're not. Simple as that.
    Yes they do. Most teams come together for a specific reason. Even this shitty Titans team did. They came together under the idea of gaining back their memories and figuring out what caused them to lose them. That is a well defined mission statement. It actually made people excited because everyone thought they would be involved in the Rebirth mystery and Manhattan, especially given Wally's importance in the Rebirth special. The problem is that whole story quickly fell apart and they have struggled to find a direction to replace it because once they got rid of that story idea they didn't have anything else to lean on. Just that "we were a team before so lets just be a team now and do all the same things we did then". Less than 2 years later they have already scraped that team for a JL farm team idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Have you...ever read any like 80s or 90s Titans comics? Because you realize your exact logic about the JSA is also what applies to the Titans too, right?

    If we were to apply your logic about the Titans across the board, then we'd be compelled to find that both the Titans and the JSA are lesser teams because they aren't the marquee teams and they both have different "versions" of League characters. However, you seem to be applying a double standard here.

    The Titans aren't a "lesser JLA-like team." They are their own team, with their own original members, their own original villains, and their own original stories, just like the JSA is their own team. They've faced things that the League has never faced. They've done things that the League has never done. And for a good long while (like a whole decade), their adventures were more popular than the League's adventures. So, because one member of the Titans made a lasting jump from the Titans to the League doesn't mean they try to "graduate" to the League. Wally wanted to take over for Barry so he went to the League because Barry was on the League, but (1) that doesn't mean he forgot about the Titans because, again, he still served as a Titan several times and (2) it didn't impact how the Titans operated because they were still their own team doing their own things. And also, Dick, Donna, Roy, Garth, et. al. are not sidekicks anymore. They transcended that role a long time ago. In fact, it was being on the Titans that allowed them to do that.
    Did you miss my post where I said "The only DC equivalent you can make to the Titans is the JSA in terms of being a lesser JL team with no specific mission statement"? I already said the JSA are like the Titans but they were DC's first hero team and have been grandfathered in. So they have that to fall back on, but there was a long period time where the JSA were shelved too because they didn't fit anymore. The JSA having so many members of different ages, some older than most of the JL characters, helps them not feel like they are so far below the JL where the JL can step in and "ground" them or make them disband like they did the Titans who consist of just young heroes.

    Also the NTT era when they were more popular isn't even canon anymore. The Titans most groundbreaking story in Judas Contract was removed from continuity. So DC doesn't value that era at all in the comics, even Raven and Beast Boy are basically part of Tim's generation now instead of Dick's, but that is also an era that I'm not talking about. It is irrelevant to the discussion because this is about them as adults. They were still the Teen Titans back then and DC's youngest generation of heroes. They aren't that anymore as Titans. They are some of the most experienced heroes DC has. There are even 2 generations of younger heroes behind them but DC still wants to push these adult Titans characters as being unsure of themselves and not knowing what they want to do or be. Even the League can "ground" them and force them to disband if they want.

    And "graduating" doesn't just apply to Wally's situation. It is the general idea of the Titans being a lesser team or a stepping stone to the JL. Just look at Cyborg. They completely removed his Titans history to make him a JL member because they looked at the Titans as a lesser entity that they didn't want to tie him to. That is the problem. The Titans aren't looked at as a team close to being on equal footing to the JL. The same thing can be applied to Dick or Donna when they "graduated" to the JL for their brief stints. DC had to remove Wonder Woman and Batman from the team so Dick and Donna could "move up" and when they came back they got "pushed back down". That is the core of the problem as it positions the Titans as being a lesser JL team. If Dick leaves the Titans Batman isn't going to slide in to cover for him. The Titans becoming a JL farm team and Abnett's whole "Dick will lead the JL one day" only further enforce the idea of the Titans being a stepping stone instead of their own team.

  9. #84
    Incredible Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    There are already several government black-ops teams in the DCU: Checkmate, Knightwatch, and SHADE just to name a few. So, no, they don't really need something "extra" to exist. The Titans exist because they don't want to be in the League and want to be their own team.
    Yeah, and those teams don't have any comic book series right now so my point still stands. Look, if these groups are just supporting characters in another book, then yeah, it won't matter, but if they're published series, they will have to compete for attention.

    By the way, SHADE handles monsters so that's a start. I don't know about the others. Yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    The same reason anyone has liked any superhero team ever: the characters. Not everyone worships the Big 6, not everyone who loves them prefers them to some or all of the JSA and plenty who prefer the JLA still love members of the team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Then you should go back and read some JSA comics. Like someone else said on here, not everyone wants the same flavor of ice cream every day of the week. Not everyone wants to read about the same team. The JSA and the Titans offer their own unique flavor of super heroics just by virtue of being different characters.
    Yes, of course, each character have their fans and they prefer to read them than JLA. I'm not asking them to read J...

    I feel like we're kinda missing the point here.

    You guys are focusing on me saying that Titans/JSA are not as important as JL as if I'm underestimating them, but the reason I'm mentioning all of those is because DC's the one who's been doing it. DC is the one who's been treating Titans and JSA like they're not important. They erased both of them from continuity. How can I view them as something equal if the company themselves do that?!

    Maybe I wasn't clear about my intention. I'm sorry for that.

    What I said is based on what I've seen from how DC treats their own characters.
    The reason I keep comparing to JL is because that's what DC prioritizes
    The reason I said Titans and JSA are lesser is because they were erased and after being brought back they haven't been involved in main stories and Titans independence is replaced by being a trainer for future Justice League.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Not to mention in their 2000's incarnation, the only one which matters to me personally, they were a team that did have a unique niche going for them, being the preservers of legacy with a mixed generational team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Whether or not they do currently is kind of irrelevant. The point is that they should and did for a long time and investing in the franchise is what brought it success, so much so that it outshone the JLA.
    Yes. It. Does. It super matters. It matters because how DC treated its characters will affect how readers will view them in the present and in the future.

    Why are people angry that DC erased or changed certain characters or their accomplishment? Aside from personal preference, because people won't know about how important and how much they mean to them, to the story and other characters. If they won't know, they won't care, and if they don't care, they won't be respected. The fans will get frustrated because these new people don't get it and DC will say, see, no one like them, let's do more Batman.

    So you can keep saying that Titans is equal, you can keep mentioning their past accomplishment, but as long as the company itself don't view them that way, don't present them that way, you're going to keep meeting people who don't view them as you do, and the above happen.

    I keep asking for something unique and different because at this moment, that's the only thing I can suggest to change things. Of course it doesn't technically matter since I'm not presenting this to DC, and even if I do it won't matter until they change their view point, so why I keep doing this I don't know. Unleashing frustration maybe.

    I need a fricking donut.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 04-15-2018 at 08:27 PM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yeah, and those teams don't have any comic book series right now so my point still stands. Look, if these groups are just supporting characters in another book, then yeah, it won't matter, but if they're published series, they will have to compete for attention.
    And with the exception of events, book sales aren't based on how relevant their stories and characters are in-universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yes, of course, each character have their fans and they prefer to read them than JLA. I'm not asking them to read J...

    I feel like we're kinda missing the point here.
    You said you didn't understand why fans would want the JSA back. I told you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    What I said is based on what I've seen from how DC treats their own characters.

    Yes. It. Does. It super matters. It matters because how DC treated its characters will affect how readers will view them in the present and in the future.
    Sadly, to a degree, you're right. Leaving aside what we each think is important for the Titans to succeed (I was just talking about the unique niche the JSA filled in my post you quoted so I'm not sure why you did that) the less someone has read, the less they'll understand about how things are supposed to be and the easier it is for newer takes to influence their thoughts. Because of all of DC's f**k ups and mistreatment of characters and teams, this has happened to a lot of characters, far beyond just the Titans.

    That said however, just having a good writer remains far more important than their standing in the DCU. It doesn't matter if they're treated consistently as equals to the League or if they're given the new job of holding back the evil gods of the Dark Multiverse if their stories remain crap like they have been for so long. Right now if a new fan, who are who we're talking about here, asks me what Titans comics I'd recommend, I either have to tell them to get dozens of floppies from the 90's and early 2000's* or trades from the 80's with very archaic writing. Want new fans to respect and love the Titans? We need a good, accessible book to hand em and say "This will make you a Titans fan".

    *Admittedly, this part of the problem could be partially solved if they'd just collect those runs.
    Last edited by Assam; 04-15-2018 at 08:29 PM.

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I'd still call it a spin-off of the Avengers because it was taking a tremendously popular Avengers hero in the Hulk at that time and giving him his own team. Namor, Dr Strange, or Valkyrie weren't selling the team. Hulk was. It is why he was positioned in the center of most of their covers. Sure, I guess if you could say it is similar to Batman and the Outsiders as a team where Batman was selling a team with lesser heroes on it, but the Outsiders tended to focus on more covert threats to the JL compared to how the Defenders were doing the exact same thing the Avengers were doing. Although the comic eventually ran its course and the creator didn't know what else to do with the team. So the series ended. The Titans are in that situation now where no one knows what to do with them. .
    The Defenders was actually an anti-Avengers, featuring the more obscure or fringe characters that, at the time, didn't fit into an Avengers mold. It was no more of an Avengers spin-off than Avengers was of Fantastic Four.

    And, IIRC, the Defenders was cancelled to make room for the New Universe line and because Marvel wanting to bring back the original X-Men team in X-Factor, not because the writer had run out of ideas. Matter of fact, Gillis had to rush his storyline to wrap it up in the last issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    It isn't generic if they are the team that is defining it. Derivatives of it would be generic, like the Titans. It is a very basic mission statement, but it is well defined because it easily and simply explains why these characters are together on a team and focuses their pulled resources on achieving that goal.
    Actually they weren't the first team to define in the DCU, though. That would be the Justice Society. The League stole their schtick.

    Yeah, because the original team was cancelled decades ago because it couldn't sustain a book. So they keep the name and just apply it to other teams. They did the same with the Defenders.
    This pretty much proves my point, though. The team didn't maintain the "mission statement" that made them unique to other teams in the Marvel Universe.

    I'd still call it a spin-off of the Avengers because it was taking a tremendously popular Avengers hero in the Hulk at that time and giving him his own team. Namor, Dr Strange, or Valkyrie weren't selling the team. Hulk was.
    Well, actually, how do you know that? Strange and Namor are still classic and popular Marvel characters.

    Yes they do. Most teams come together for a specific reason. Even this shitty Titans team did....Just that "we were a team before so lets just be a team now and do all the same things we did then". Less than 2 years later they have already scraped that team for a JL farm team idea.
    Firstly, my "no" was to the idea that the Titans are spin off team. Secondly, nothing in the solicit or the announcement suggests that the new team of Titans are going to be a "JL farm team."

    Did you miss my post where I said "The only DC equivalent you can make to the Titans is the JSA in terms of being a lesser JL team with no specific mission statement"? I already said the JSA are like the Titans but they were DC's first hero team and have been grandfathered in.
    Them being DC"s first team literally means nothing, firstly. They were still being published before the New 52 because there were unique stories to tell with them because they are unique characters. The end.

    And if your argument is "the JSA are only around because they were around for a long time", well then I hate to break it to you, but the Titans have been around since the 1960s. They aren't going anywhere. The Titans are always going to be around up until DC goes out of business.

    So they have that to fall back on, but there was a long period time where the JSA were shelved too because they didn't fit anymore. The JSA having so many members of different ages, some older than most of the JL characters, helps them not feel like they are so far below the JL where the JL can step in and "ground" them or make them disband like they did the Titans who consist of just young heroes.
    Okay, firstly, the Titans being young adults does not mean that they are below the League. Hell, most of the Titans members can't be said to be kids anymore, since at least a few of them have had children of their own. Also, a majority of them aren't even former sidekicks, but original characters.

    Also the NTT era when they were more popular isn't even canon anymore. The Titans most groundbreaking story in Judas Contract was removed from continuity. So DC doesn't value that era at all in the comics, even Raven and Beast Boy are basically part of Tim's generation now instead of Dick's, but that is also an era that I'm not talking about. It is irrelevant to the discussion because this is about them as adults. They were still the Teen Titans back then and DC's youngest generation of heroes. They aren't that anymore as Titans. They are some of the most experienced heroes DC has. There are even 2 generations of younger heroes behind them but DC still wants to push these adult Titans characters as being unsure of themselves and not knowing what they want to do or be. Even the League can "ground" them and force them to disband if they want.

    And "graduating" doesn't just apply to Wally's situation. It is the general idea of the Titans being a lesser team or a stepping stone to the JL. Just look at Cyborg. They completely removed his Titans history to make him a JL member because they looked at the Titans as a lesser entity that they didn't want to tie him to. That is the problem. The Titans aren't looked at as a team close to being on equal footing to the JL. The same thing can be applied to Dick or Donna when they "graduated" to the JL for their brief stints. DC had to remove Wonder Woman and Batman from the team so Dick and Donna could "move up" and when they came back they got "pushed back down". That is the core of the problem as it positions the Titans as being a lesser JL team. If Dick leaves the Titans Batman isn't going to slide in to cover for him. The Titans becoming a JL farm team and Abnett's whole "Dick will lead the JL one day" only further enforce the idea of the Titans being a stepping stone instead of their own team.
    You're missing the whole point of this conversation. Everything you just mentioned is what DC has done that has angered the fanbase and why the fans WANT DC to revert the Titans back to their former glory. The fans WANT the NTT era back in continuity, especially since Cyborg being on the League hasn't done him any favors. In the Titans, he was an actually, fully fleshed out character. For seven years now on the League, he's been wallpaper. Priest's run is the first time he's had more than like two lines per arc. They WANT the Titans to be treated with more respect by the writers and editors. The JL "grounding" them is something that sparked so much backlash from actual Titans fans, because, in years past, the Titans that we all remember would have told the JLA to pound sand if they told them to disband.

    However, you don't revert a team back to its former glory by disbanding the team and cancelling the title. You do it by actually investing in that property. Embracing its history and putting the right writer on the title.

    And honestly, I don't know why DC wouldn't want to bolster the Titans since the JL brand may be facing severe and irreparable damage (yet notice how nobody is calling for the League to disband).
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 04-15-2018 at 09:46 PM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

    DC Pulls - Action Comics; Bug! Adventures of Forager; Deathstroke; Doom Patrol; Hal Jordan & the GLC; Mister Miracle; Superman

    Marvel Pulls - Captain America; The Mighty Thor

    Non-Big Two Pulls - Saga; Archie

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    The same reason anyone has liked any superhero team ever: the characters. Not everyone worships the Big 6, not everyone who loves them prefers them to some or all of the JSA and plenty who prefer the JLA still love members of the team.

    Not to mention in their 2000's incarnation, the only one which matters to me personally, they were a team that did have a unique niche going for them, being the preservers of legacy with a mixed generational team.
    I agree.

    And going back to the topic of spin-offs, titles that were spin-offs (such as West Coast Avengers, Excalibur, X-Factor and Justice League Europe) came about usually because the parent team needs to keep evolving, but without removing members you can't put new members in. So, the spin-offs were created as a place to move the characters that developed a following, while making room (in both the parent team and the spin-off) for new blood.

    If characters aren't moved to make room, the title can become stagnant. Such as New Titans and JLI near the end of their runs.
    Team Titans could've possibly saved New Titans, if DC had moved two or three members over to it when it launched, instead of basing it entirely on alternate timeline Terra and a bunch of new characters. But apparently, they were afraid to split the team.
    JLI was actually in need of a third title when Breakdowns occurred, as the team had solidified to a core of six members (Beetle, Booster, Fire, Ice, Guy and J'onn), not leaving much room for change. But those six had become almost inseperable.
    Last edited by Lee Stone; 04-15-2018 at 09:30 PM.
    Currently reading: Legion of Super-Heroes ('80s), New Teen Titans ('80s)

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yeah, and those teams don't have any comic book series right now so my point still stands. Look, if these groups are just supporting characters in another book, then yeah, it won't matter, but if they're published series, they will have to compete for attention.

    By the way, SHADE handles monsters so that's a start. I don't know about the others. Yet.
    The current Titans title sells 30-40k. And in their heyday, they were DC's highest selling title. So they don't need help garnering sales if they're handled properly. Even when they're not being handled properly (like now), they still sell decently.

    You guys are focusing on me saying that Titans/JSA are not as important as JL as if I'm underestimating them, but the reason I'm mentioning all of those is because DC's the one who's been doing it. DC is the one who's been treating Titans and JSA like they're not important. They erased both of them from continuity. How can I view them as something equal if the company themselves do that?!

    Maybe I wasn't clear about my intention. I'm sorry for that.

    What I said is based on what I've seen from how DC treats their own characters.
    The reason I keep comparing to JL is because that's what DC prioritizes
    The reason I said Titans and JSA are lesser is because they were erased and after being brought back they haven't been involved in main stories and Titans independence is replaced by being a trainer for future Justice League.

    Yes. It. Does. It super matters. It matters because how DC treated its characters will affect how readers will view them in the present and in the future.

    Why are people angry that DC erased or changed certain characters or their accomplishment? Aside from personal preference, because people won't know about how important and how much they mean to them, to the story and other characters. If they won't know, they won't care, and if they don't care, they won't be respected. The fans will get frustrated because these new people don't get it and DC will say, see, no one like them, let's do more Batman.

    So you can keep saying that Titans is equal, you can keep mentioning their past accomplishment, but as long as the company itself don't view them that way, don't present them that way, you're going to keep meeting people who don't view them as you do, and the above happen.

    I keep asking for something unique and different because at this moment, that's the only thing I can suggest to change things. Of course it doesn't technically matter since I'm not presenting this to DC, and even if I do it won't matter until they change their view point, so why I keep doing this I don't know. Unleashing frustration maybe.

    I need a fricking donut.
    You do realize that this entire time, Assam and I have been saying that DC SHOULD be treating the Titans with more respect and independence than what they have been. We know that recent years have seen the Titans floundering under the current management, but again, that's a relatively RECENT development. In the past (the 80s, 90s, and even early 2000s), the Titans were an independent, fully functional team, given respect by the editors as such. DC needs to return to that mentality. Its only been since certain elements arose in the editorial staff that the Titans have been so openly disrespected and treated only as a "junior Justice League" with nothing to offer aside from that, when there's nothing further from the truth.

    The Titans do have something to offer. In fact, what they have to offer can outdo what the JLA has to offer, when done right. That's why we need writers and editors who actually know and love the Titans to return and show these characters the respect they deserve. I honestly don't know why DC doesn't do this, because they should be investing in other teams besides the JL. Its not like their current vision of the JL has been met with much...enthusiasm.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 04-15-2018 at 09:38 PM.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

    DC Pulls - Action Comics; Bug! Adventures of Forager; Deathstroke; Doom Patrol; Hal Jordan & the GLC; Mister Miracle; Superman

    Marvel Pulls - Captain America; The Mighty Thor

    Non-Big Two Pulls - Saga; Archie

  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The Titans do have something to offer. In fact, what they have to offer can outdo what the JLA has to offer, when done right. That's why we need writers and editors who actually know and love the Titans to return and show these characters the respect they deserve. I honestly don't know why DC doesn't do this, because they should be investing in other teams besides the JL. Its not like their current vision of the JL has been met with much...enthusiasm.
    I remember when Convergence happened, there was an interview with Wolfman about the New Teen Titans issues.
    And he mentioned Didio's reaction when he read Wolfman's story. Didio was quoted as saying to Wolfman, 'You really like these characters, don't you!"
    When I read that, I imagined that it came with Didio being astonished that anyone could like them, because he obviously didn't, and it sounded a bit condescending to me.
    But my interpretation of Didio's reaction was most likely influenced by the way the Wolfman run, and the characters from it, have been treated worse than anything this side of JLI.
    Last edited by Lee Stone; 04-15-2018 at 09:52 PM.
    Currently reading: Legion of Super-Heroes ('80s), New Teen Titans ('80s)

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