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  1. #16
    Mighty Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    I agree with Bendis. I’ve read Powers and some of his crime graphic novels, and enjoyed Ultimate Spider-man and Alias substantially more.

    ( We all know how subjective it all is, and always hard to discount love of a specific genre in reaching these judgments...but I do like crime genre nearly as much as super heroes, and enjoyed Ed Brubakers Criminal, etc much more than Bendis crime I’ve read.)

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I agree with Bendis. I’ve read Powers and some of his crime graphic novels, and enjoyed Ultimate Spider-man and Alias substantially more.

    ( We all know how subjective it all is, and always hard to discount love of a specific genre in reaching these judgments...but I do like crime genre nearly as much as super heroes, and enjoyed Ed Brubakers Criminal, etc much more than Bendis crime I’ve read.)
    I always recommend Torso for Bendis crime related stuff. It's by far my favorite, and up there with Brubaker's offerings in terms of quality. Do yourself a favor and check that one out if you haven't already.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awayne83 View Post
    I always recommend Torso for Bendis crime related stuff. It's by far my favorite, and up there with Brubaker's offerings in terms of quality. Do yourself a favor and check that one out if you haven't already.
    Jinx and Goldfish are the two I've read, so will give Torso a go next time I run out of comics reading "stuff".

    That may be a couple of months at rate I read comics nowadays, got Jonathan Hickman's Avengers run in comixology sale a week ago...should keep me going for sometime...or maybe not if it's as addictive as his Fantastic Four/ Future Foundation run.

  4. #19
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    You're wrong, there's some people who can do amazing work outside of the mainstream. Mike Mignola created Hellboy himself along with John Byrne at the start, along with BPRD, etc. And all of his stuff is super enjoyable. I'm a pretty huge fan of his series Lobster Johnson, I think that's some amazing pulp stuff. Then there's people like Jeff Lemire, almost everything he does is incredible. I love his independent stuff, as well as his own creator owned stuff. Walter Simonson can do anything and make it amazing. He's like on a Godlike level of comic authors. But, as far as Hickman goes, I loved his mainstream work, his own solo stuff like East West is nice, but other stuff he does just plain sucks. Ed Brubaker's creator owned stuff is quite possibly some of the best work he's ever done next to Cap and his other mainstream stuff like Catwoman.

    A Perfect example of an artist completely messing up from Mainstream to Independants would have to be Hickman though. See, Rick Remender could pull it off, cause Remender is a very strong storyteller. He can tell a great story in almost any setting. Hickman did stuff like "Nightly News", "Transhuman", "A Red Mass for Mars", etc. And most of all of it is complete garbage and an utter waste of time. Plus, his artwork is atrocious, it's some of the worst artwork I've ever seen in my life. See Brian Azzarello was smart, cause his main collaborator is no other than Edwardo Risso, an amazing artist, and one who's works are played in shadows. 100 Bullets is creator owned, Moonshiners, and so on. But Azzarello knows how to tell a great proper story. That's the difference, he doesn't need any crutches. Everything on Vertigo for the most part is creator owned, besides a few mainstream series. Jason Aaron's independent works like Southern Bastards, Scalped and so fourth are all great. I loved his Penguin One-Shot as well, that was magnificent.

    But I agree with you, because I do follow the writer more than the series. Like Rob Willaims is a fantastic writer and his works on Suicide Squad are some of the best so far in its entry. His creator owned stuff is also really good as well. Cullen Bunn can do both mainstream and creator owned stuff and it's still better than 99% of everything being published today. That's a fact, Bunn is way ahead of his time. Although he's pretty goofy in real life and a happy go lucky dude with a huge ass family and a shit-ton of kids. He's a hell of a writer and a great guy to actually conversate with. He's a super cool and laidback kinda guy with an interesting mind-set.

    I've been wanting to mention this for a long time and this is the perfect place to mention it:

    The one person who I think is better as a mainstream writer, and pretty much messed up comics for everyone. Is no other than Alan Moore. His mainstream works are the best, his creator owned stuff is pure cancer. I can't take anything he creates seriously, cause it's like he's a shadow of his former self. Alan Moore's a kooky guy who worships snakes in real life, he's pretty whacked out and probably strung out on either heroin or lots of acid. While his best work in history will always be Saga of the Swamp Thing over everything else he's ever done, though Captain Britain and Miracleman are highly up there as well. He as a human-being is nice. I like him and have met and spoken to him and his daughter. I've got no problem with him as a human, as a writer I do.

    Sometimes in a persons case when they mess up in a deal it's best to let it go, cause regardless they continue to get paid no matter what the outcome is. Moore is a lot like a pro-wrestler. I could pretty much compare him to CM Punk at best. CM Punk in his head thinks he's the best wrestler ever. In someways he was at the time. But wrestling is all scripted and nothing is real. Besides the hard bumps, and sometimes shoot promos and or fights and random receipts it's all entertainment. At the end of the day, it's still a business and it goes on with, or without you. CM Punk once mentioned how John Cena buried people with a Golden Shovel. How no one would make it to the top cause he'd keep them down. That was a shoot, backstage politics and such come out and then people get bitter an address it in awful ways. Now, John Cena is a businessman as well as a company man. He jobs sometimes more than goes over. But at the end of the day, it's a business and he still does his job. That's a fact, people don't have to like him. But he's always there, regardless of the situation he still goes to work and entertain people.

    CM Punk was only concerned with his paycheck and his status as a wrestler to go over on people. He loses his belt, and wanted a championship match at Wrestlemania, however, Triple H wanted to wrestle him in a non-championship match there. Punk didn't want that, so he quit, cause he said they were holding him down. But CM Punk isn't Hulk Hogan, Hulk Hogan has full creative control. Meaning, if he wants to keep that belt until the end of time, he can keep that belt. CM Punk was nowhere near the status of Hulk Hogan, or even Stone Cold, so for him to demand such a thing is truly unreasonable of him. Now, he's an MMA fighter who can't even fight and win a match. He's a shadow of his former self. This entire analogy sums up who Alan Moore is, although he was on Hulk Hogan's level as a comic writer, and did have complete freedom to do whatever the hell he wanted. He said no, you screwed me like Punk claiming Triple H screwed him. But how can Moore get screwed by a company, when Moore screwed himself? Punk did the same exact thing, you blame a company who fed you and put food on your table for your kids and then go out your way and bury them for what?

    People always mention how Moore could've swallowed his pride, made amends and come to an agreement over Watchmen. It didn't have to end so awfully, and then when ABC came around, they gave more another chance, and once again, Moore had even more problems and all of those comics fell through. ABC was his last best works he's ever done in his career and sums up everything in the past decades. Again, Moore could've contended and fought that battle, he could've contested or even come to some sort of agreement. But Watchmen always haunted him in the back of his head. It made him stagnant and bitter, and hindered everything he'd ever do going forward. Out of doing stuff for people in Image, and then going full blown into Avatar, Moore basically destroyed himself. No matter how much people praise his new works, there all garbage. He's just a bitter old man who's trying so hard to stay relevant today. People praise Providence a lot, and say great things about it. But it was awfully written, and just not enjoyable at all. From Hell I would have to say was one of the best stories he ever did. But at the time he did it, he was at his peak. In contrast to Punk, in WWE he was at the height of his peak, now he's nothing. That's how I feel about Alan Moore today. He's a shadow of himself.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    I don't think Alan Moore is particularly bitter. (That's a guess...and I know he regularly moans about DC when interviewed. But usually a perusal of full interview script will show that interviewer asks specific questions to trigger tirade off. Analogy I think of is a particular boss I used to work for. I don't go around thinking about him at all. But if a mate asks what I think about the old boss some choice expletives are predictably released.)

    But I did think about Alan M as a possible suggestion. After all a lot of his DC work...Swamp Thing say, and his classic Superman stories...set an incredibly high standard, which would be hard to equal outside the mainstream. But I think he did at least match that in some non-mainstream work..."From Hell" for example. And I wasn't sure how to categorise his early 2000AD work such as "Future Shocks" and "Time Twisters"...probably alone among Alan Moore admirers, that was the work I most enjoyed.

    I find it very difficult to judge his recent work. I'd say the latest I read ("Providence") showed exceptional writing skills and he brought out very good work from his artist (often the case with a top comics writer)...but the content was so far adrift from my "taste" that I only enjoyed it a bit. I suspect he will never do any more mainstream super hero stories...but if he did I'm pretty sure he'd produce exceptionally good work.

  6. #21
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    Snyder has done nothing that I enjoy nearly as much as American Vampire which is a pseudo independent book. I loved Hickman's FF (Avengers not as much) but I also love East of West. For the life of me I can't think of any independent stuff Johns as has ever done. So for me there is no hard fast rule. Simonson's work on Thor was the best work on the character but while giving Ragnarok a try it didn't hold my attention.

  7. #22
    Moderator Balakin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awayne83 View Post
    He's probably referring to that issue where Bendis eludes to Powers kind of always existing "evolutionarily" through flashbacks to early stages of humanity. Maybe even some nods to reincarntion, but it's been awhile, so I can't accurately recall.


    I'd have to agree with Waid, Byrne and David, with the majority of their renowned work heavily involved with various franchises. And I'd also argue Morrison, Miller and Bendis, who all have an abundance of renowned creator-owned projects, but arguably have their strongest works embedded in franchises among the big 2 as well.
    ah yeah if it's that flashback issue then it's not monkey rape, they are more missing links or neanderthals. It's a bit different
    I disagree with Morrison though but he is so polarising I think we just have to agree to disagree. I love Invisibles but if someone can't get into it I won't really try to change their mind.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balakin View Post
    ah yeah if it's that flashback issue then it's not monkey rape, they are more missing links or neanderthals. It's a bit different
    I disagree with Morrison though but he is so polarising I think we just have to agree to disagree. I love Invisibles but if someone can't get into it I won't really try to change their mind.
    I don't think him being polarizing really relates to op's question. You rank invisibles (and other indy work) above the likes of Animal Man, Doom Patrol, and his Batman, X-men, Superman and JLA books? Imo, he's clearly done his best work within the Marvel/DC confines
    Last edited by awayne83; 05-07-2018 at 11:48 AM.

  9. #24
    Moderator Balakin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awayne83 View Post
    I don't think him being polarizing really relates to op's question. You rank invisibles (and other indy work) above the likes of Animal Man, Doom Patrol, and his Batman, X-men, Superman and JLA books? Imo, he's clearly done his best work within the Marvel/DC confines
    I rank it above Batman, DP, NXM and Animal man but I don't think I can compare it to JLA or ASS, apples and oranges to me. As the op said this can be very subjective, I think Morrison is equally good in both company and creator owned but I can't really argue with your point. Some say Invisibles is brilliant, some say it's unreadable garbage because it is of an acquired taste (by which I don't mean intelligence level, just to be clear).

    Here is another: Gillen.
    Phonogram and W+D vs Young Avengers and JiM

    Haven't read JiM yet but I prefer Phonogram over YA but I know a lot of people can't stand Phonogram because it's pretentious hipster bs but that's why I love it.

  10. #25
    Incredible Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    One writer I would like other opinions on. Rucka on Wonder Woman. I only read one graphic novel Rucka did on Wonder woman and I hated it. But I love his work on Black Magick.
    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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    "That's the problem with our opposition they keep thinking nobody could possibly be as stupid as we are. Fools 'em every time."
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    One writer I would like other opinions on. Rucka on Wonder Woman. I only read one graphic novel Rucka did on Wonder woman and I hated it. But I love his work on Black Magick.
    You'd probably get more traction in the dc thread. Rucka wrote the Hiketeia and then moved on the the main series in the early 2000s. I just bought these but haven't had a chance to read any of it yet. I have read the first half of his second stint on WW (rebirth) and thought it was excellent. I haven't read much of the character to compare it to historically though (need to get around to Azz's run as well)

  12. #27
    Mighty Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    One writer I would like other opinions on. Rucka on Wonder Woman. I only read one graphic novel Rucka did on Wonder woman and I hated it. But I love his work on Black Magick.
    Greg Rucka is one of my favourite authors, and I’ve read a fair amount of his DC, Marvel, and independent work.

    Personally I think most of his very best work has been outside the big two (e.g Lazarus, Stumptown, Queen and Country, Black Magick).

    I don’t dislike his Wonder Woman run, and quite enjoyed his run on Punisher. But the only DC work that I think stands up to his best indie work is Gotham Central...and I can’t remember there who did what between him and Ed Brubaker. (I’m pretty sure one wrote the stories about night time shift, and other about day time. But may be wrong, happy to be corrected.)
    Last edited by JackDaw; 05-07-2018 at 11:49 PM.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member TheCape's Avatar
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    I think Mark Millar works better if you let him to free, his writting can get... weird.

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