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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Uncle Ben (and Bruce Wayne's parents, Superman's planet...) weren't fridged. Death by origin story is a completely different trope.
    It serves the same purpose. A character gets killed(otherwise removed) for to provide the hero with movtiaion to be a hero.At least in the case of Spiderman and Batman.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    And if Peter and Gwen just broke up in the 70's and she just went away.... she'd be in the same position Julie Madison is.

    The Night Gwen Stacy died is often considered one of the hallmark stories of Spider-Man and in comics is generally considered the kickoff to the bronze age. Gwen Stacy achieved a legacy as the lost love of Spider-Man that put her on par with Uncle Ben as a character. It was something that could always be used to go back in stories as part of the greater Spider-Man mythos. Are we just going to pretend that Uncle Ben isn't terribly important to the Spider-Man character. That you can't go a year in reading Spider-Man comics without him being referenced because of how important he is?

    In general Gwen Stacy could easily have been a forgotten old Spider-Man girlfriend that nobody cared about. Instead, she's THE girl Spider-Man wanted but failed to protect. Like do you think the overarching plot of the ASM films of Peter dating Gwen against the orders of Captain Stacy and her ultimate death would have been a thing if not for that story? I'm willing to be Spider-Gwen isn't even a thing if Gwen and Peter just break up and she becomes a nothing character.

    Hell go outside of comics, who are two of the most iconic Bond girls that are most heavily cited as fan favorites? Vespar Lynd and Tracy. Why? They were the two girls Bond wanted the most that he was unable to protect. They are the only two Bond girls that were references in films past their death. Even iconic ones like Honey Ryder and Pussy Galore did not get that distinction.

    When a character is going to be viewed as expendable, you might as well do something to make them have an impact on the way out.

    It's a useful plot device if you do it right. I think the problem is more the execution and it being done badly. For instance, it was gratuitous in Green Lantern and it was used to prop up a minor C-list character. In Flash, it made Reverse Flash the archenemy of the character and also set into motion a string of events from killing the villain, to being ostracized from the Justice League, to going back to the future to find Iris to having to leave his little slice of heaven to face the Anti Monitor and save his world one last time that ended up being pivotal to the Flash line.

    Every trope depends one execution.
    No I'm not claiming Uncle Ben isn't important. I'm saying the Night Gwen Stacy Died did not make her as important as Uncle Ben.

    Who is considered an iconic Bond Girl varies from person to person. Considering how often they blend together and don't appear in more than one film. I just looked up a list and Honey Ryder was rated above Vesper. Vesper being referenced past more than one film was because the Craig films were of the few that cared for continuity.

    Gwen was deemed a nothing character even with The Death. That story did not help her character.

    How convenient then that this trope seems to be very useful when it comes to disposable female love interests while with male character writers tend to just write them better.

    As for Julie Madison, let's not act like the Batman writers or the fandom for that matter cares for any female love interest that isn't Selina Kyle.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Uncle Ben (and Bruce Wayne's parents, Superman's planet...) weren't fridged. Death by origin story is a completely different trope.



    Please don't tell me you're trying to push the idea that getting killed off is beneficial to female characters.
    If the character is likely going to relegated to background role and become phased out of the mythos then yes it absolutely is. Compare Gwen to literally every superheroes girfriend that broke up with them and just stopped appearing for whatever reason. Same with male characters.

    There's about zero percent chance Gwen is Spider-Gwen without getting killed off nor is there a chance Jason Todd is Red Hood if he just quit being Robin. Look at what's happening to Tim Drake as he is still a hero and is becoming irrelevant. Right now Jason's way better off than Tim.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyriVerse View Post
    Just an ordinary trope and not worth angsting over.
    Ditto. ten char

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think Gwen's death in the comics was less of a fridging then it was in Amazing Spider-Man 2, if only because at least in the former it wasn't just to cause Peter man-pain since it also kickstarted Mary Jane's character development and the progression of her role in the book.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Being iconic for dying is little if any better than being obscure. Remember, one of the biggest criticisms against ASM 2 was Gwen's death, namely for how cheap it was.

    Also, Spider-Man was already a popular character without Gwen's death. Killing her off didn't make her seem any less expendable.
    But killing off Gwen gave the writer the opportunity to develop Mary Jane, which was the main goal, not just death for the sake of death.

    Okay, wasn't clear that the original post was about ASM 2. I wouldn't call it "fridging" but it might've been just to give that version of SM a little tragic depth.
    Last edited by ouroboros; 06-10-2018 at 12:32 PM.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No I'm not claiming Uncle Ben isn't important. I'm saying the Night Gwen Stacy Died did not make her as important as Uncle Ben.

    Who is considered an iconic Bond Girl varies from person to person. Considering how often they blend together and don't appear in more than one film. I just looked up a list and Honey Ryder was rated above Vesper. Vesper being referenced past more than one film was because the Craig films were of the few that cared for continuity.

    Gwen was deemed a nothing character even with The Death. That story did not help her character.

    How convenient then that this trope seems to be very useful when it comes to disposable female love interests while with male character writers tend to just write them better.

    As for Julie Madison, let's not act like the Batman writers or the fandom for that matter cares for any female love interest that isn't Selina Kyle.
    Vesper was referenced in two films. Tracy who was part of the old continuity was also referenced in multiple films. You will often find both Tracy and Vespar rated very highly by the fandom. Like top 5 at worst.

    Julie Madison was Bruce Wayne's freakin fiance in the Golden Age of comics. Long before Catwoman was ever even viewed as much more than a femme fatale. So that's not applicable whatsoever. She was never competing with Selina Kyle. It wasn't until the 50's that they really started playing her as a possible love interest. No Julie Madison was just the primary love interest of Bruce Wayne no different than Lois Lane/Carol Ferris/Iris Allen etc. It's just in that case they broke up and she left the comics and became a nothing character. Like she's only ever referenced when they make stories revisiting Batman's early days when she would have been his love interest at the time (and even that was only recently with all the reboots).

    I didn't say it was only useful with female characters. That's just putting words in my mouth. I think the Gwen situation was very similar to the Jason Todd scenario. They were characters who were on the verge of being irrelevant (in Gwen's case because they weren't ready to marry off Spider-Man and the MK pairing was more appealing and in Jason's because he wasn't exactly that popular of a character) and likely being pushed to the background. They then went on to become massive symbols for the next couple of decades for the protagonists failure. Great stories spun out of just the examination of those events. They both became referenced just as much as the initial deaths that created each respective character.

    I mean I didn't hear anybody complaining that Steve Trevor got fridged in the Wonder Woman movie. That was a text book fridging. It motivated her in her final fight and then was used as pathos in the next film.

    Again it has more to do with execution. The term fridging was created out of an incredibly poor and tasteless use of the trope

  8. #23
    Spectacular Member kjn's Avatar
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    If it was only Gwen Stacy, fridging wouldn't be a trope.

    It's a trope because it happens a lot. Disproportionately to women. And the message it carries is basically that women are replacable.

    Now, one can make a case that Uncle Ben was fridged, but he taught Peter Parker something, and he was remembered by both Aunt May and Peter, and there were reasons for Peter to think that he was partly culpable for Ben's death. But in most cases, fridgings are "cripple the bitch". She is replacable, and with the sole role of motivating the hero.

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Let's not forget the term "fridging" didn't become a thing until a decade after Gwen's death.


  10. #25
    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    A tired old trope that doesn't necessarily help the business, but I'm not sure if it hurts it either.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    If it was only Gwen Stacy, fridging wouldn't be a trope.

    It's a trope because it happens a lot. Disproportionately to women. And the message it carries is basically that women are replacable.

    Now, one can make a case that Uncle Ben was fridged, but he taught Peter Parker something, and he was remembered by both Aunt May and Peter, and there were reasons for Peter to think that he was partly culpable for Ben's death. But in most cases, fridgings are "cripple the bitch". She is replacable, and with the sole role of motivating the hero.
    I think the disproportion comes about simply because there are more male heroes than female. Thus, as with the Conway example, one girlfriend can be killed to make way for another . That said, sometimes male characters are also killed off in order to create emotional chaos. One of the most gratuitous character-killings of all time was David Micheline's execution of Aquababy in the 70s, which didn't even make a lot of sense. The kid was originally conceived as an amphibian like his dad, but Micheline showed the kid die out of water in a few minutes, just to create tension.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Vesper was referenced in two films. Tracy who was part of the old continuity was also referenced in multiple films. You will often find both Tracy and Vespar rated very highly by the fandom. Like top 5 at worst.

    Julie Madison was Bruce Wayne's freakin fiance in the Golden Age of comics. Long before Catwoman was ever even viewed as much more than a femme fatale. So that's not applicable whatsoever. She was never competing with Selina Kyle. It wasn't until the 50's that they really started playing her as a possible love interest. No Julie Madison was just the primary love interest of Bruce Wayne no different than Lois Lane/Carol Ferris/Iris Allen etc. It's just in that case they broke up and she left the comics and became a nothing character. Like she's only ever referenced when they make stories revisiting Batman's early days when she would have been his love interest at the time (and even that was only recently with all the reboots).

    I didn't say it was only useful with female characters. That's just putting words in my mouth. I think the Gwen situation was very similar to the Jason Todd scenario. They were characters who were on the verge of being irrelevant (in Gwen's case because they weren't ready to marry off Spider-Man and the MK pairing was more appealing and in Jason's because he wasn't exactly that popular of a character) and likely being pushed to the background. They then went on to become massive symbols for the next couple of decades for the protagonists failure. Great stories spun out of just the examination of those events. They both became referenced just as much as the initial deaths that created each respective character.

    I mean I didn't hear anybody complaining that Steve Trevor got fridged in the Wonder Woman movie. That was a text book fridging. It motivated her in her final fight and then was used as pathos in the next film.

    Again it has more to do with execution. The term fridging was created out of an incredibly poor and tasteless use of the trope
    I don't think most people see Steve Trevor's death as fridging. He was a soldier who died a noble heroic death in battle. And he had a lot more complex role in film than just being "the boyfriend who's only purpose is to die."

  13. #28
    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    Steve Trevor didn't really serve to enforce or get Diana into the game. It didn't really start her rampage or her determination to finish her quest, but it DID sort of serve Diana's narrative as peaceful and forgiving if available.

    But Steve wasn't created to give Diana that narrative, he just died in a war assisting immortals in their fight against other immortals while he himself was just mortal. His end was due to sacrifice and not just being killed which would be in service of the trope.

  14. #29
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    The death of Gwen Stacy is highly overrated and overpraised. It was just the first fridging and people were shocked. But it wasn’t needed whatsoever. Conway just preferred Mary Jane and decided to trash the girl he didn’t like.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  15. #30
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    How many times has the Hero's girl get killed in a movie and he just replaces her? I don't think the message is women are replacable. You do have to wonder why the hero's woman almost always has to die it does get weird after a while.

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