View Poll Results: Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

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  • Yes

    86 71.67%
  • No

    34 28.33%
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  1. #211
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Imagine it's you and it was your mind and a godlike being decided to connect the most intimate and private part of you, your mind to an ideological enemy without your consnet.
    I would love this person until the end of time. Too bad we don't have people doing what Jean did.

    Yes. Imagine. Almost like a Lennon song. Imagine you suddenly getting an epiphany that what pisses you off truly doesn't.
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  2. #212
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    That's where we disagree. I don't think you get any more private sphere than the human mind. Should we be surrendering all privacy to be "safe". I think her use of telepathy may even undermine her. She essentially stopped an army in it's tracks. It's still a show of force to world governments regardless of her methods. If anything given it was her telepathy it might be more frightening then if she used her telekinesis.
    No one surrendered their privacy to be safe. They would have been murdered. This isn't some vague far off threat like say giving up privacy to combat future terrorism with the Patriot Act. This was a real, immediate threat as bullets were already flying.

    This was effectively a war zone. People give up privacy in war zones all the time. Go to Afghanistan and tell me if you think theSoliders have the same rights and privacy that a normal citizen has. They do not. The Polish Army had automatic weapons, tanks, missiles and the like. It is perfectly normal for certain things to be given up when faced with such an immediate and militaristic threat.

    At the end of the day, Jean prevailed with zero losses on either side. That is a win period. Trying to hold to some weird sense of privacy or pedantic morality given the nature of this specific conflict is naive idealism IMO.
    Last edited by remydat; 06-16-2018 at 11:36 AM.
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  3. #213
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Imagine it's you and it was your mind and a godlike being decided to connect the most intimate and private part of you, your mind to an ideological enemy without your consnet.

    It's not that Jean's intentions weren't correct. It's that she didn't actually have the right to do what she did and she didn't need too either. She isn't god anymore.
    If the alternative is death, Id be forever grateful to Jean and wouldnt care that someone I'd likely never see again was briefly in my thoughts

  4. #214
    Incredible Member Celestialbodies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    Examples of Emma Frost doing stuff have already been called out as even less ethical in this very thread.

    So the thing you're asking for? It already happened.
    Actually, it didn't someone brought up Emma pushing an angry mobs "bliss button" as a comparison. There has yet to be an honest discussion about what's ethical and whats not and why the same ethics doesn't apply to all super-powered individuals.


    My point was where are these threads about ethics when X-telepaths use their abilities however they like on a monthly basis?

  5. #215
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Taylor had Kurt raise the issue because he understand some people would question it. However, he obviously then had Jean respond so that he could explain why what she did was ethical. Kurt asked if she changed something in their minds. Jean explicitly said she did not and all she did was show them the other side. "And in that moment, instead of monsters, each soldier experienced another person standing in front of them with hopes and faults and dreams and fears. The soldiers saw the reality of their government's bigoted narrative. And MOST of them CHOSE to do the right thing." It is clear from the above that whatever Jean did, the soldiers still had a choice because all of them didn't chose the same thing. Most of them did which by definition means some of them did not. Jean should certainly being on the slope. The world is too complicated to hold to the illusion that you will always be able to stay off the slope. The difference between a good person and a bad person is not that they don't ever get on the slope, it is that a good person more often than not stops before slipping off the other side of said slope. If writers only wrote characters that never approached the slope, not only would it be boring but it simply would not be a reflection or reality.
    This point was great, gave me lots of food for thought. Sometimes heroes do have to make morally questionable decisions, even if it would make some people (myself in this case) uncomfortable. I maintain that Taylor raised and dropped the question too quickly, but if it becomes a plot point later I'll be pleasantly surprised. I also still believe that Taylor explaining to us why it was moral isn't good enough, there's not enough there to convince me personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Killing is never too far to prevent murder. Nor is an act of war to prevent genocide unethical. If that were the case, the UN would never have intervened to prevent genocide in various parts of the world. Further, your notion that she has a seasoned team while correct is again falling prey to the idea above that humans are robots. It doesn't matter how skilled and how well trained her team is, life is full of variables. Gambit knows this more than anyone because despite his skill and training, he still saw a mutant die because of a single random act of violence. By all rights he should have been able to prevent it except he didn't and someone is now dead. You argument is the kind of argument that only makes sense when you know the threat is fictional. In real life, if you were on that beach facing an army with tanks, you want Jean to end the threat ASAP! No one in real life has the luxury to bypass a quick and non-lethal solution to try and talk when bullets are flying. That is fantasy.
    I'm sorry but Gambit's failure felt contrived to me, as does the idea that Jean action was the best and only option that she had. Jean's presence alone, not to mention Storm, makes any and all guns on that beach utterly useless. The soldiers may as well have had slingshots. You're right, if I was an innocent mutant on that beach and I didn't know who these people were, I would likely be hoping desperately that they had a plan, but as a reader I know that she and her team had many options. The threat being fictional only matters in as far as I know what Jean and her team are capable of.

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    And sure Nova most certainly can use this against Jean. However, you cross that bridge when you get there. Again, in real life, you don't have time to plan what some evil genius may do. You end the threat before something goes wrong. Period. Everything else again is just something you can argue from the comfort of your keyboard because there is no real danger. Finally, consent is most certainly important. Except of course when the person that failed to give consent is about to brutally murder women and children. There is no way around it. It is unrealistic to expect any human being telepath or not to be worried about maintain limits AT ALL TIMES when genocide is on the table. There are no absolutes in this world. There is no scenario where anything holds true AT ALL TIMES. I generally said with consent 99.9% of the time. When someone is about to brutally kill women and children then pardon my Polish, F consent.
    That was more of an olive branch to share ideas and theories.

    I don't think I've disregarded the context, apologies if it seems that way, but I guess a good reason we don't see eye-to-eye is that I consider the individual's mind as sacrosanct, and while Jean didn't brainwash them, she meddled with things that are by their nature to me on the morally gray area of actions. I've seen "heroes" in the MU abuse their telepathy on friend and foe alike, it's a larger issue that needs to be addressed, and maybe if the history of telepathy wasn't what it was in the MU it wouldn't bother me much - if at all.

  6. #216
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Actually, it didn't someone brought up Emma pushing an angry mobs "bliss button" as a comparison. There has yet to be an honest discussion about what's ethical and whats not and why the same ethics doesn't apply to all super-powered individuals.


    My point was where are these threads about ethics when X-telepaths use their abilities however they like on a monthly basis?
    Exactly, that was a big motivator for my problem with it.

  7. #217
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    If the alternative is death, Id be forever grateful to Jean and wouldnt care that someone I'd likely never see again was briefly in my thoughts
    Sure, but if I knew as much about Jean as a reader when I was on that beach, I'd much rather she had taken any of the other options she had to avoid bloodshed.

  8. #218
    Amazing Member GarDian's Avatar
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    Ethical? Of course not. But who the f@*$ expects anyone to be ethical in a fight?

    I think a lot of people are confusing ethical with "did she do something wrong."

    We only expect people to be ethical in a civilised society. People are killing people. The only ethical person in that situation is a dead person.

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