View Poll Results: Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

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  • Yes

    86 71.67%
  • No

    34 28.33%
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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    He was being a jerk, but she still invaded his mind. And the new location of the school is idiotically smack-dab in the middle of Central Park. Might as well put up a neon sign that reads “attack us.”
    I don’t think the school is in a good location but there is no excuse to be attacked no matter where they are located. That’s called victim blaming.

    That being said, I do agree the hot dog incident was an overreaction on her part. I’m not sure what that incident has to do with this though.
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Woo, I didn't expect this to get it's own thread when I raised my problem with it. It was just a tiny footnote in my summary of the 5th issue. I haven't argued it was extreme, just that it was at least morally questionable regardless of the situation. I don't understand if someone thinks Jean had to do it, she had an entire team behind her, including Storm!



    Look, the guy is an idiot, but they've dealt with far worse than a hot dog; Jean's response was disproportionate to the fools actions, she made him very aware that his darkest secrets were no longer secrets to her. Why isn't that, I dunno, not okay? Not even evil, just maybe not okay?

    I THINK the idea is that the victim of an attack (having food thrown at them) being held responsible for their reaction rubs some people the wrong way, because the focus of blame should be on the original perpetrator. It takes focus away from the original hate crime or whatever you wanna call it.


    In other words yes jean certainly could and should’ve reacted better but the whole situation happens because some guy threw a hot dog at her.

    Btw The more I respond to this incident the more silly it sounds. Lulz. Now I want a hot dog.
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  3. #63
    Y has come to PunishedFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    I’m not sure what that incident has to do with this though.
    I think he's showing a pattern of behavior from how Jean is shown using her power.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Telepathy is morally dubious power by nature. And it doesn't help that Marvel has treated it way too casually for years. We can't suddenly go all "Waa! It's unethical!" now for little things like these when far far worse things have been done through TP.

    I just have a problem that Taylor is making it even more plot breaking than it already is. Now, whenever a similar situation occurs and a telepath is around, I'm going to think why they aren't just mind-linking these guys. Just merge minds and whoosh, problem solved.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Telepathy is morally dubious power by nature. And it doesn't help that Marvel has treated it way too casually for years. We can't suddenly go all "Waa! It's unethical!" now.

    I just have a problem that Taylor is making it more plot breaking than it already is. Now, whenever a similar situation occurs and a telepath is around, I'm going to think why they aren't just mind-linking these guys. Just merge minds and whoosh, problem solved.
    Solid point.

    Stuff like this makes for major narrative issues going forward because it's too much of a silver bullet.

    I have never liked casual telepathy exactly for the reasons that Jean herself states on-panel in the OP.

    EDIT:

    I also get kind of concerned over the casual "the ends justify the means" attitude that seems to pop up.

    It's so grimdark and...90's. So not-heroic.

    These people are supposed to be heroes in heroic stories showing a better way even if that better way is not "realistic".

    If the "ends justify the means", why doesn't a powerful telepath just warp the mind of every human on Earth so they're incapable of feeling anything negative towards mutants? Wouldn't that be "justified"?

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    I think he's showing a pattern of behavior from how Jean is shown using her power.
    I see, thank you.
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  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    Solid point.

    Stuff like this makes for major narrative issues going forward because it's too much of a silver bullet.

    I have never liked casual telepathy exactly for the reasons that Jean herself states on-panel in the OP.

    EDIT:

    I also get kind of concerned over the casual "the ends justify the means" attitude that seems to pop up.

    It's so grimdark and...90's. So not-heroic.

    These people are supposed to be heroes in heroic stories showing a better way even if that better way is not "realistic".

    If the "ends justify the means", why doesn't a powerful telepath just warp the mind of every human on Earth so they're incapable of feeling anything negative towards mutants? Wouldn't that be "justified"?
    Isn’t stopping violence and fostering peace heroic though? What is the more heroic alternative here, if not?

    Stopping bullets and such with tk is heroic, sure. But I would think doing something to create peace (without forcing it on them, which she didnt) is even more heroic than just stopping bullets.

    I know I’m biased as a jean fan I’m just trying to understand.

    Regarding the end justifying the means, I wouldn’t worry about that until heroes themselves start saying that. As of now it’s mostly readers that outwardly use that defense. Not the heroes. At least not so far in this book.
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  8. #68
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    I’m a huge Jean fan as well, which is why it bothers me so much.
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  9. #69
    Astonishing Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    Solid point.

    Stuff like this makes for major narrative issues going forward because it's too much of a silver bullet.

    I have never liked casual telepathy exactly for the reasons that Jean herself states on-panel in the OP.

    EDIT:

    I also get kind of concerned over the casual "the ends justify the means" attitude that seems to pop up.

    It's so grimdark and...90's. So not-heroic.

    These people are supposed to be heroes in heroic stories showing a better way even if that better way is not "realistic".

    If the "ends justify the means", why doesn't a powerful telepath just warp the mind of every human on Earth so they're incapable of feeling anything negative towards mutants? Wouldn't that be "justified"?
    Telepathy is such a broken power this days
    Mind-reading and mental communication were the basic set from a telepath. But now you also have:
    Memory alteration.
    Astral projection
    Absorbing new skills and languages from others
    Instantly teaching new skills and languages to others.
    Body swapping (something Emma had to create a machine to do to Storm, and then later, with Bobby, could just do, on her own).
    Eidetic memory.
    Mind control
    Emotion control
    Make people see / hear / perceive things that aren't there
    Make people not see / hear / perceive things that are there
    Control people's bodies
    Psychic tracking.
    Locating people via mental signatures, either to find people during a disaster, or to find a specific person.
    Psychic assaults.
    Mental shields (both for themselves and to grant to others).
    Hijack sensory data, to eavesdrop on what someone is seeing/hearing/etc. in real time.
    Last edited by TheCape; 06-12-2018 at 09:37 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    Isn’t stopping violence and fostering peace heroic though? What is the more heroic alternative here, if not?

    Stopping bullets and such with tk is heroic, sure. But I would think doing something to create peace (without forcing it on them, which she didnt) is even more heroic than just stopping bullets.
    Then why not stop the bullets and give a speech? Appeal to them intellectually and then the soldiers refuse to follow their orders? This is a common enough trope.

    She forced thoughts into their heads AND did this not only to the soldiers but the mutants themselves as well. That is a betrayal of the mutants as well.

    Now, we can just say "Well the mutants would die if she didn't do that" but that is, again relying on assuming there is no alternate option, and creating a two-wrongs-make-a-right answer and holding Jean totally unaccountable for the initial wrong against an innocent party.

    She bared those people's thoughts to others.

    If, for instance, she had pulled up the shirts of all the mutants present and the soldiers didn't fire on them because they realized the women mutants were capable of being total hotties and they changed their minds because of that...we wouldn't be having this conversation and the action would be denounced roundly, I'd imagine. More likely, the writing would be denounced. And rightly so.

    Now...is sharing someones feelings/experiences/minds with someone else, regardless of their consent, any different than showing their body to someone else? I mean...in reality someone can show off their body but we have no way to show off our minds. That suggests to me that the mind is even more private...which would make what Jean did arguably worse.

    I know I’m biased as a jean fan I’m just trying to understand.
    I have a MAJOR Jean fan in my life and these scenes really made her unhappy. Well...that and Jean's hideous costume. Jean as a telekinetic is so much better. Telepathy becomes way too creepy a power for heroes.

    Regarding the end justifying the means, I wouldn’t worry about that until heroes themselves start saying that. As of now it’s mostly readers that outwardly use that defense. Not the heroes. At least not so far in this book.
    I think I just get concerned on a societal level when I see that sentiment...especially when it's being said in regards to characters made for children that are supposed to be heroic ideals.
    Last edited by PunishedFire; 06-12-2018 at 09:36 PM.

  11. #71
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Telepathy is fine when it’s consensual or they’re using it to actually prevent deaths. Or using as a means for communicaton in the most dire of situations (for instance; Charles talking through Sabretooth in the first X-Men movie). Or to find and contact people in trouble. But don’t rewrite somebody’s personality if they’re just doing their job or pry into the secrets of a minor nuisance.
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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Was it the most ethical thing if Jean is being held to a standard that most other comic characters are not, i guess no, but who holds Jean to those types of standards? When Magicians use illusions to manipulate people is that considered a heinous act as some claim Jean did?

  13. #73
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    Was it the most ethical thing if Jean is being held to a standard that most other comic characters are not, i guess no, but who holds Jean to those types of standards? When Magicians use illusions to manipulate people is that considered a heinous act as some claim Jean did?
    Magicians don’t go into your brains and take in your private thoughts or implant new ones by force.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    Was it the most ethical thing if Jean is being held to a standard that most other comic characters are not, i guess no, but who holds Jean to those types of standards? When Magicians use illusions to manipulate people is that considered a heinous act as some claim Jean did?
    If the leader of the X-men isn't being held to a higher standard...who is?

    Jean should hold herself to the highest standards for ethical use of mutant powers...otherwise she's validating humanities fear of mutants and even, in some cases, justifying it (in her case).

    Empath, for example, was rightly considered a piece of garbage for manipulating how people feel.

    Daken is a sociopath and he uses his powers similarly.

    Shadow King effectively turned Muir Island into a utopia by virtue of making everyone the the thrall of the Shadow King. Even though Muir Island was then without crime or hate or fear, it doesn't make it an ethical thing to do.

    A character like Psychoman using technology to turn everyone on his planet into happy, docile sheep doesn't make what he did ethical just because the outcome is "good".

    Some characters get held to higher standards.

    And they should.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    I THINK the idea is that the victim of an attack (having food thrown at them) being held responsible for their reaction rubs some people the wrong way, because the focus of blame should be on the original perpetrator. It takes focus away from the original hate crime or whatever you wanna call it.


    In other words yes jean certainly could and should’ve reacted better but the whole situation happens because some guy threw a hot dog at her.

    Btw The more I respond to this incident the more silly it sounds. Lulz. Now I want a hot dog.
    Yeah, I see your point, I’m not saying that’s untrue, and I’m sorry if some people thought I was implying Jean was wrong to stop that guy, because she wasn’t. It was just her action itself was disproportionate to the offense; you know what I think would’ve been better and funnier? If Jean stopped it in midair and just threw it right back in the guys face. Simple and to the point.

    Hot dogs are good. Chicago dogs, chili dogs, take your pick. They shouldn’t be the centerpiece to several pages worth of a comic book though - unless it’s an ad.

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