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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Again, in a serialized universe, not every event is assigned equal weight in the ongoing narrative.

    Not every past story has to be addressed or acknowledged to every reader's satisfaction in order to tell future stories.
    I never said it had to be addressed.

    I simply said that, yes, Kid Loki was murdered by old Loki. That that fact may be later changed does not change that it is fact, now.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    My promised synopsis, it is a long one. There is a lot of setup here.

    God of Thunder Reborn - Aaron/Del Mundo/D’Alonso

    We open on Midgard where Thor is fleeing The Crimson Temple of Cyttorak with its disciples in hot pursuit. He is holding The Warlock’s Eye, one of the many weapons that were cast onto the cosmic winds and in this case fell to earth. He is reclaiming them one at a time. He reflects upon his recent past on his ‘first week back’. His unworthiness, the fall of the ‘New Thor’ and the ‘death of Mjolnir’ as he becomes cornered on a high cliff edge. He also reflects upon how much he enjoys his role.

    Confronted by a fully empowered Juggernaut, Cain punches Thor into the void. As Thor falls he calls to Screwbeard the Dwarf to send his new hammer. When he receives it Thor rises into the sky in full glory, lines up his shot and the hammer breaks upon the Juggernaut’s helmet. Thor gets pummelled into the dirt all the while calling for all of the weapons Screwbeard is working on. They rain down around them and a disciple discovers to his peril they are protected by enchantments. Thor explains that to wield it one has to be “The God of #$%&$%# Thunder!” as he creates a huge lightning storm to dispatch as many as he can. Lifting a pun laden hammer he asserts “My Name is Thor!” and clouts Cain with it and begins the fight anew.

    Later he returns with the eye and a golden hammer to Old Asgard and Screwbeard, explaining he had to use all of the hammers to fight Juggernaut, and will need more and purer Uru. Ud the troll muses on how little there is in all of existence. It urns out the Bifrost being broken has isolated them, and so Thor goes to the blind Heimdall and they discuss the ongoing project to repair it and Old Asgard, before Thor moves onto Odin.

    Odin has heard the enchantment allowed Thor to fly and thunder, but he is most preoccupied with Freyja.

    In the Bronx Roz is overseeing the moving of the Asgardia refugees into a tenement building. Thor is met by Jane who it is revealed is providing Thor with his leads to the location of the weapons. She takes a shine to Thor’s golden hammer. As the words ‘no you may not touch my hammer’ leave Thor’s lips he realises she has been acting the straight-man, setting him up for that punchline.

    He meets Freyja who is tending to the unconscious Volstagg. Freyja wonders if Thor has seen Loki, and Thor suggests that if he had she would have heard the thunder and screams. Freyja says he will come to Thor and that he should not believe “he’s as much a monster as he so desperately tries to seem.”

    Thor follows Jane’s lead to The Southern ocean and a fight with Namor, to reclaim The Gem of Infinite Suns. Later in Newark Harbor he pulls the gem out of a shark and stashes it on a small boat he apparently calls home. Loki is there and Thor begins a one-sided fight. He ironically reiterates “I am not the monster you might think, no matter what Lady Freja might have…” before Thor tries to choke him for daring to say her name.

    Loki wants to help Thor end the war. He will not name his price yet, and doesn’t await Thor’s agreement. Instead opening up a portal explaining ‘I can be your Bifrost brother.’ Thor does not go easily, pulling Loki, the boat and Thori with him to Niffelheim, where Baldur and Skurge ride a heavy-metal vehicle literally from Hel.


    The Grace of Thor - Aaron/Ward

    Grandfather Thor battles the last ever Space Shark above New Midgard while his granddaughters watch on from a longboat. Ellisiv feeds it textured vegetable protein to stop it consuming all animal life. On new Midgard Thor goes to the bedside of the aged, dying Jane (the Eve of New Asgard) who he proclaims as the builder of a new world. He tells her there is no longer an afterlife but she rejects his offered extension of life. When she passes on he talks of her in religious terms to her and Steve’s descendants.

    Ellisiv tries to discuss the disappearing stars and the possible death of the universe. Mjolnir lands next to him and we learn he has sent it out into the cosmos to view the universe and report back.

    Thor files out to the ‘far end of the cosmos’ musing how he can’t hit entropy with a hammer. He is shot down by a blast of fire and lands on a rock only to be confronted with an elderly Wolverine-phoenix who hopes Thor has brought beer to the end of time.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    My main thoughts on this issue are that this is more of a setup issue than previous #1s from Aaron. He spends a lot of time developing the new status quo before launching Thor and Loki into their adventure. Almost everything here is actually an elaborate form of exposition. Indeed it is almost a text book on how to use exposition.

    The quest for weapons is a way of explaining Thor's current status. How the enchantment on his hammer works, who can lift it, where the magic comes from. The weapons he is gathering are effectively compared and contrasted with the vault weapons, to remind us of the glories of Old Asgard. In doing so it reminds us this is not the Thor from the beginning of Aaron's run. This is an unworthy Thor with a lesser weapon, and a weaker power-set. But he isn't complaining. He is getting on with his job. Reclaiming his name and his role. Fighting the good fight.

    The broken Bifrost is used both as a status quo element. Explaining the limited movement around the realms that Thor and co. have, but also as an analogy of the broken relationships that surround Thor. Thor spends a lot of time negotiating broken bridges. Those between Freyja/Odin, Freyja/Loki, Thor/Loki, Midgard/Old Asgard and most importantly Old Asgard/The Realms. This is setting up Thor's real challenge. To mend the bridges between them.

    Not only is the setup masterful, the tone is new. Aaron has taken a touch of the humour we see in the MCU and applied it to his story. Not in a joke laden way, although they are there, but in a joyous, celebratory way. I always read Aaron's Thor issues with a smile on my face, but none more so than this issue.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I never said it had to be addressed.

    I simply said that, yes, Kid Loki was murdered by old Loki. That that fact may be later changed does not change that it is fact, now.
    I'd have to re-read the story myself to comment on those specific events.

    But even if they occurred exactly as you describe, it doesn't mean that every Thor/Loki story going forward has to contend with Loki as a child-killer, as it seems that some readers believe it should be.

    It might be something that happened but not everything that's in continuity has to be explicitly woven into the present stories.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I never said it had to be addressed.

    I simply said that, yes, Kid Loki was murdered by old Loki. That that fact may be later changed does not change that it is fact, now.
    He's not old Loki. Old Loki DIED and got reincarnated as Kid Loki, Loki's back in the more complete form that he currently holds because Kid Loki died. Kid Loki was not cloned from a blood sample that Loki's body naturally replaced overtime. He was a piece of the greater puzzle that is Loki and made whole again. Kid Loki had a soul, it is Loki's soul. For Thor to judge Loki for what he did is to say he doesn't have right to possess his own soul. It was all cruelly done but there are much bigger crimes Thor can be taking up with Loki then self-mutilating. Pick any number of massacres.

  6. #81
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Roz, what do you mean you had to sell the flying car to pay for rent? It was SHIELD tech and shouldn't be in public hands, so selling the car shouldn't have been an option for her.

    The art was crap in places - especially on one page where Jane ends up looking like The Scream.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    That there is no afterlife could be for any number of reason. It might be destroyed for that reality or that reality might just be cut off from the central afterlife of the universe. It might also be that the humans King Thor created never had souls anyways due to the lack of resouraces he had when creating them.
    The afterlife point seems to be to be partly an epilogue to Jane's story by analogy. It is clear to see that the Jane on her death-bed is a direct analogue with Jane and her cancer. They have the similar questions about religion, they both reject Thor's offer of magic, they are both prepared to die without the comfort of an afterlife.

    When some accuse Aaron of 'preaching atheism' I despair, because all I see him doing is seek to explain the position of some of the characters and by extension perhaps reflect upon his own views. Views that seem to be far from simple, at least in the ways they are expressed in the stories. Why a self-reflection upon belief within a story has to necessarily be seen as preaching (ironically the exact wrong term), is beyond me. Are the religious so challenged by atheism that they can't even read a story that contains elements of it? Are the people that complain about this actually religious or are they just against Aaron and seeking to hit him with anything they can get hold of?

    There is a general pattern in the attack of writers in comic fandom. They often seem to see the strengths of the individual writers as weaknesses.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I'd have to re-read the story myself to comment on those specific events.
    Really, don't do that to yourself. It really isn't worth it!

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Really, don't do that to yourself. It really isn't worth it!
    Oh, don't worry, JK - I had no actual plans to do so!

  10. #85
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    This angle in Thor has grown fairly tiresome. It’s time to go back to basics. Thor should retain his classic appearance or the redesign with the metal sleeves. Bring back more fun Lee/Kirby/Simonsonesque stories. Less dour. More colorful.

    Also, yeah, it annoys me that they keep acting like the Loki clone is the genuine article when the real Loki died in Siege. This one is the product of Kid Loki eating the crow (Ikol), that held an echo of the original Loki. And I think Gillen made it very clear that he is a different entity from the original Loki. I’m not a fan of the current version and would prefer to see the return of the original Loki and/or Kid Loki (I did love Kid Loki). Hell, have three Lokis run around so long as the original is recffcognized as the true Loki.
    Last edited by KurtW95; 06-14-2018 at 05:59 AM.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Loki was unable to lie, and his statement was confirmed by another mystical lie detector. I don't see much in the way of wiggle room there, nor should it matter that it wasn't the climax of an arc. It earned him a beatdown, and again, every story that addressed the arc from the first one has treated it as murder.

    The evidence is on my side, until another writer changes it. But that's not happened yet.
    You are stripping every ounce of context from a complicated story. If that is what you want to do fine, but you can't force that narrow perspective on others. Especially not Marvel or Aaron. From my perspective you are not only removing the context, you are entirely misrepresenting what actually happened and what the story was about. My reading of the story is based upon the overall arc. What Loki's plan was finally revealed to be and how it manifested in that individual issue. It takes into account what JitM was about, and how Ewing finished his story. You seem entirely focused on #10.

    Stories are not reducible to incidents, and if one tries, one removes meaning. How can we possibly find any common ground when we are clearly reading comics entirely differently?

    You will inevitably be disappointed because no other writer is going to readdress that story in the way you seem to want. They have no reason to. It is past. The story was told then and is over.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    This angle in Thor has grown fairly tiresome. It’s time to go back to basics. Thor should retain his classic appearance or the redesign with the metal sleeves. Bring back more fun Lee/Kirby/Simonsonesque stories. Less dour. More colorful.
    Minor costume quibbles aside that is exactly what this issue is doing, considering Aaron is still in the midst of his ongoing story. It is a back to basic fun story that is less dour and vividly more colourful.

    As to Loki. I have no further comment.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 06-14-2018 at 06:07 AM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    The afterlife point seems to be to be partly an epilogue to Jane's story by analogy. It is clear to see that the Jane on her death-bed is a direct analogue with Jane and her cancer. They have the similar questions about religion, they both reject Thor's offer of magic, they are both prepared to die without the comfort of an afterlife.

    When some accuse Aaron of 'preaching atheism' I despair, because all I see him doing is seek to explain the position of some of the characters and by extension perhaps reflect upon his own views. Views that seem to be far from simple, at least in the ways they are expressed in the stories. Why a self-reflection upon belief within a story has to necessarily be seen as preaching (ironically the exact wrong term), is beyond me. Are the religious so challenged by atheism that they can't even read a story that contains elements of it? Are the people that complain about this actually religious or are they just against Aaron and seeking to hit him with anything they can get hold of?

    There is a general pattern in the attack of writers in comic fandom. They often seem to see the strengths of the individual writers as weaknesses.
    Well, if you disagree that something is a weakness then obviously you see it as a strength.

    But when you criticize the Simonson run, I don't categorize it as an attack. Though I think it's fair to say that what I see a strength in his work that you think of as weakness.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Well, if you disagree that something is a weakness then obviously you see it as a strength.

    But when you criticize the Simonson run, I don't categorize it as an attack. Though I think it's fair to say that what I see a strength in his work that you think of as weakness.
    When I criticise Simonson's Thor I do so with enormous respect and appreciation, along with an acknowledgement that I once loved every bit of it. I still love it, I just don't enjoy it in the same way. I am far more demanding of comic writers now than I was back then. The bar has risen.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    When I criticise Simonson's Thor I do so with enormous respect and appreciation, along with an acknowledgement that I once loved every bit of it. I still love it, I just don't enjoy it in the same way. I am far more demanding of comic writers now than I was back then. The bar has risen.
    LOL. What a backhanded way to say that you now find the writing sub par because you have become wiser.

    For myself, I am far more demanding of comic writers now, knowing how good Simonson was then and remains.


    Getting back to this issue, I agree that I was a bit disappointed we didn't learn more about the new hammers. I'm glad to see Roz back - hopefully the possibility of romance between her and Thor is not entirely dead in the water.

    Speaking of which, I would have enjoyed seeing Namor have his Imperius Ass handed to him.

    I think I prefer the rendering in the Avengers comic, without the helmet.

    Thori is always good value
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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