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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I'm 100% certain that the letters Ma Gunn found at the time Biz busted through the wall in that issue were genuine and that Solitary wouldn't have known about them at that time. However the building did sit empty while Ma Gunn was in jail and the letters didn't come to Jason directly from her hand either. She sent them supposedly to her granddaughter so there was opportunity for Solitary to potentially swap out of even add a letter to the pile. I'm not suggesting that this is indeed what happened here. Everything could very well be on the up and up but all I'm saying is its just as possible that this entire thing is a set up using just enough truth to get Jason to believe that Penguin is responsible for his life back then going to crap.

    To be honest though it's really Willie's fault since he made the choice to hench in the first place. Penguin was only part of the reason.
    And this exactly why Jason going out of his way to shoot Penguin is stupid, making it so Penguin survives the whole thing is just the cherry on the top of an already crappy cake.

  2. #152
    Long Live The Phantom Aioros22's Avatar
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    The character is not omnipotent.
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  3. #153
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    The character is not omnipotent.
    Neither infallible nor always choosing the right course of action. He can messup, and he does. So if he did choose poorly going full against Cobblepot, he did mess up. Even if one can understand from a cold and far place that it was Willis own decision to work as a henchman. But Jason was shocked, hurt and highly emotional, and we know how blinded he can be, in a meticulous and cold way, even. It's in character.

    It's like how Dick often chooses the wrong words to say when he's hurt and emotional, or how Tim can be very bitter when he's hurt.
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  4. #154
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    And this exactly why Jason going out of his way to shoot Penguin is stupid, making it so Penguin survives the whole thing is just the cherry on the top of an already crappy cake.
    And how many times in real life do people place the blame for things that go wrong in their lives on the wrong person? I've seen that happen several times with the people around me so it doesn't seem strange or out of character for Jason to do so here to me. Also Jason, just like everyone else, is capable of making mistakes otherwise he'd be a Gary Stu who is never wrong and he is emotionally compromised at this point to boot. I don't find any of that to be a flaw in the storytelling. It actually makes it feel more realistic to me.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; Yesterday at 10:23 AM.
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  5. #155
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    In any case, I think it's still too early to discuss the whole story of Jason going against Penguin in definitive terms. I still think we're missing something here, and I think we may find out what soon.
    Last edited by Zaresh; Yesterday at 11:23 AM.
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  6. #156
    All-New Member Sergard's Avatar
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    Before issue 24 the upcoming confrontation between Batman and Jason in the next issue felt like a clash of two different moral codes. But now thinking about it, including Jason's state of mind at the end of issue 24 and Bruce wanting to bring Jason in, it feels more like a chase. Jason is trying to run away and Bruce is trying to catch him. We already know that Jason will get away but I wonder what Bruce' plan of action would have been after catching Jason. Would he really throw Jason into prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    To be honest though it's really Willie's fault since he made the choice to hench in the first place. Penguin was only part of the reason.
    Yeah, I share your sentiment. I don't even buy Willis' argument that he did it for Jason. I can maybe believe him that he started the whole henchman career because Jason was sick as a baby. But so far we haven't seen any memory of Jason confirming him being sick as a child. As by now it looks more like Willis was starting to like his job as a henchman. Although the whole Willis fiasco reminds me of a story from the game "Silent Hill: Shattered memories" told by a psychologist to the client (the player):

    Prince Wilhelm is passionately in love with Celestine. But she does not love him. One day, Wilhelm comes to the King and asks for Celestine's hand in marriage. Celestine begs the king not to marry her to Wilhelm, but the king ignores her pleas. Royal protocol means he must say yes to the match. They are married and Wilhelm takes Celestine back with him to his kingdom. That night, he attempts to consummate the marriage, but the distraught Celestine flees. She runs from the safety of the castle and across a field, ignoring the sign which warns of danger. In that field is a bull, who, seeing the girl, charges her. She falls under his hooves and is killed instantly.
    source: http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/Psych_Profile

    Then the psychologist asks the player to order the four characters (Celestine, Wilheilm, king, bull) from most guilty to least guilty regarding Celestine's death.

    It's similar here. Who is the most guilty regarding Willis' imprisonment?
    - Willis, because he chose to be a henchman?
    - Penguin, who needed someone to the take the fall for him?
    - Jason, because his sickness as a baby was the trigger for Willis starting as a henchman? (according to Willis)
    - Jason's mother, in case the sickness was because Catherine drank alcohol and maybe took drugs?

    I still think it is in character for Jason wanting to kill the Penguin, less for his father but for everything else that happened afterwards.

    And I feel like Zaresh regarding this point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    For me, Jason meant to kill Penguin until the end. But he realized just to which point he drove himself by his blinding emotions afterwards, and how much he messed up.
    Although I was a little surprised that Jason aimed at Penguin's eye and not at the center of his forehead like he normally does, like in RHaTO (2011) issue 8 when killing Suzie Su (who nevertheless survived?). Or in the following issue 9 when he killed a talon. On the other hand shooting through Penguin's monocle was probably a symbolic act since the monocle is a characteristic trait of the Penguin, like a logo. Googling information about a shot in the eye gave rather wide-ranged results. Some say you are instant dead others say that immediate medical attendance can prevent the worst.

    I don't mind if the next arc gets a little darker. My theory is that Jason experiences some kind of the 5 stages of grief & loss regarding his own death (denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance). So if we leave bargaining and enter depression for an arc to have at the end a Jason who accepts his problems and tries to find better coping mechanisms and maybe seeks help then I am fully happy. At moments like this I miss Kori. She was always a good excuse for some space adventure. I would like to see Jason meeting Guy Gardner from the Green Lanterns. Guy and Jason have some similarities: dead mother, abusive father, idolized elder brother, anger issues. Guy was even a part of the red lantern corps for a while and helped Supergirl when she joined the Red Lanterns. Pre-New52 Guy Gardner further graduated in psychology but I don't know if this still true for the current version.

    And thanks @JasonTodd428 @zaresh @G-Potion for the kind words regarding my last post.

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