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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    So far, with the exception of Azzarello's run, only the beginnings are interesting. In both the Pre and Post Crisis run I'm interested when they're telling the origin, fighting Ares where he's usually the first mega arc villain, up until the introduction of classic enemies like Cheetah, Circe, and Dr. Psycho. Maybe with additional arc like Challenge of The Gods.

    Beyond that, I lost interest.

    So what defines Wonder Woman mythos for me is the mythical elements. Once they get to her daily activities and daily heroism, especially once she adjusted to live in man's world, in my eyes she becomes no different than other heroes and so not unique enough to follow.
    Interesting perspective. I differ in some ways in that I long for a more stories of a mature Wonder Woman who has more experience in Patriarch's World in and some interesting twists on villains' ongoing adversarial relationship with her. I like opportunity for her to have ongoing confrontations with some villains to deepen their dynamic together. (That is dependent of course on creators being able to develop ongoing meaningful character interactions and animosities.)

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    You can pretty much put her in any setting in any era and strip or add any external factors you want, but as long as the core rings true she'll be a character I'm interested in.
    That's similar to how I feel. She "works" in tons of scenarios and in at least as many tones as Batman. (When you think of his long history of different styles and tones of television shows, movies, comics, and animation.)

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    DC tried to convince me with the end of The Truth arc that the origin doesnít matter. Pfft. I didnít accept that then. Donít accept it now.
    Aside from her means of conception (which even that wasn't focused upon at all in the Rebirth run), the origin has all the iconic elements in place. It is the same.

  4. #49
    Blue Snowmod Nyssane's Avatar
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    For Wonder Woman, I think I'm 50/50 with Marston and Rucka... maybe 60/40. With a splash of Perez thrown in for good measure.

    As for specifics, the definitive pieces of Diana's mythos for me are:

    Steve - Rucka / DCEU

    Etta - Marston / De Liz

    Cheetah - Rucka

    Amazons - Perez

    Olympians - Azzarello (with the exception of Aphrodite, whose role reduction and general concept I found insulting)

    Rogues Gallery - Marston

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member kjn's Avatar
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    Another little take, here on Diana's mission to teach and learn, and thus also touching on leadership.

    If Diana is in Man's World to teach and to learn, with the modern world she first has to learn an awful lot. Last consistent contact between the Amazons and Man's World was back in the bronze age, and even if my take on their history gives some later contacts, it has been intermittent, very limited, and an awful lot has happened from the 16th century onwards, and even going from the 70s to today can give an awful lot of culture shick. So I imagine Diana suffered from a huge cultural clash, and many of her early attempts to teach simply didn't work at all.

    On the other hand, I imagine she's been learning a lot: one thing monarchies have been good at historically has been to create heirs who are supremely quick learners (of course, if they learn the right things is open to the question, and there are lots of counter-examples).

    As for leadership, I view Diana as having been taught the value to delegate and to plan and to make best use of subordinates, but I also believe that the lesssons never really took hold. Part of it being her personality, of wanting to take action. Partly also that she never really was pushed in this area on Themyscira. Partly also because she was so capable and confident in her own abilities. She can still be a good, even excellent, planner, but her plans tend to revolve around herself and what she can do rather than on coordinating or instructing subordinates. Her leadership style is very much focused on a simple "follow me".

    I believe this is an area where Diana can grow and learn a lot, and I'd argue that her new role in "Justice League: Dark" should provide ample scope to do so. While her charisma and abilities make her the clear leader, many of the people she leads are more experienced in dealing with the type of things they have to deal with, and her main role is not to punch things but rather than steer and protect Zatanna to the point where Zatanna can take the decisive action.

  6. #51
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Aside from her means of conception (which even that wasn't focused upon at all in the Rebirth run), the origin has all the iconic elements in place. It is the same.
    You may as well have said to me, “Besides the fact that they used salt in the recipe instead of sugar, it is the same.”
    You were a wonder, Wonder Woman!

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    For Wonder Woman, I think I'm 50/50 with Marston and Rucka... maybe 60/40. With a splash of Perez thrown in for good measure.

    As for specifics, the definitive pieces of Diana's mythos for me are:

    Steve - Rucka / DCEU

    Etta - Marston / De Liz

    Cheetah - Rucka

    Amazons - Perez

    Olympians - Azzarello (with the exception of Aphrodite, whose role reduction and general concept I found insulting)

    Rogues Gallery - Marston
    This is about where I am, particularly the bolded segments. Marston and Rucka are definitely my top WW creators.

    But yeah, Aphrodite was a major missed opportunity in Azzarello's run. I'm not wild about Owl Woman Athena either, but at least she's a bit more active, even if it's mostly in service to daddy (ugh).

    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    You may as well have said to me, “Besides the fact that they used salt in the recipe instead of sugar, it is the same.”
    Her conception is not her origin. Her origin involves being raised by Hippolyta and the Amazons (who thankfully are not murderers anymore), being an Amazon princess, having Athena and Aphrodite included among her patrons and being prominent, coming from a society with technological advancements on a mystical island, Steve crashes on the island due to war/Ares related shenanigans, she wins the Contest, gets the costume and takes him home to become a superhero and spread the ideals of peace and love. It's not different enough, nor does the revelation of her demigod status undo her interactions with other characters in the run, which were all in character.

    I'm not super into the Zeus origin, at least not how it is implemented most of the time, but I'm no longer all that into the clay birth either. It's proved off putting to enough creators and fans (and we can assume that plenty of the latter group includes female fans) that it's probably not worth keeping around anymore. The more essential elements are still in place, and Rucka's Rebirth run shows that you can write a run focused more on Hippolyta and women in general with Zeus being her father, and it not negatively impacting the narrative in any significant way.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    As for leadership, I view Diana as having been taught the value to delegate and to plan and to make best use of subordinates, but I also believe that the lesssons never really took hold. Part of it being her personality, of wanting to take action. Partly also that she never really was pushed in this area on Themyscira. Partly also because she was so capable and confident in her own abilities. She can still be a good, even excellent, planner, but her plans tend to revolve around herself and what she can do rather than on coordinating or instructing subordinates. Her leadership style is very much focused on a simple "follow me".

    I believe this is an area where Diana can grow and learn a lot, and I'd argue that her new role in "Justice League: Dark" should provide ample scope to do so. While her charisma and abilities make her the clear leader, many of the people she leads are more experienced in dealing with the type of things they have to deal with, and her main role is not to punch things but rather than steer and protect Zatanna to the point where Zatanna can take the decisive action.
    I absolutely see this being one of her skills. It's unfortunate that it gets overshadowed by Batman, nearly every time they're in the League together. I'd like to see them disagree from time to time and see Diana prevail.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    Are you referring to Ruckaís first run? Besides the fact that there were so many writers between Perez and Rucka, did Ruckaís first run erase any of Perezís continuity?
    It didn't change the past continuity but the neck snap pretty much ended the Princess of Peace here to show men a better way for the rest of that continuity and changed it more to came here with one intention and ended up being what she came here to speak against, being changed rather than changing.
    Superman was a beacon to the world.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Stealing Nyssane's format. Obviously I love my blends...

    Diana: Marston's achiever and ass-kicker, Perez's princess and powerhouse, Jimenez's humanitarian and hero, Rucka's ambassador and ally, and Simone's strategist and humorist (alliteration failed me on the last one)

    Hippolyta: Perez, Jimenez, and DCEU

    Amazons: Perez's ethnic diversity plus Marston's advanced technologists

    Olympians: A blend of Perez, Rucka (first run), and Azzarello (they're gods, they should take many forms and should stagnate in only Hellenistic interpretations)

    Steve: Rucka

    Etta: Marston, De Liz, and a dash of Rucka

    Ares: Perez and Rucka (first run)

    Cheetah: Perez minus the ugly colonialism plus a generous helping of Rucka (second run)

    Circe: Perez and Rucka

    Doctor Psycho: Marston, Perez, and Rucka

    Giganta: Jimenez

    Angle Man: Jimenez

    Doctor Poison: Eric Luke

    Doctor Cyber: O'Neill

    Queen Clea: Jimenez

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Thor2014's Avatar
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    80% Modernized Marston. High-tech Amazons, classic villains, vintage Etta and the Holiday Girls.
    5% Simone: ARGUS, Apes (a nod back to the whimsy of Marston), The Circle.
    3% Perez. Giving us the modernized Cheetah and her origin.
    6% Azzarello. The interpretation of the Olympians. His 'voice' for Diana.
    6% Rucka for the and his Year One. His characterization of Diana was on spot too, especially during much of his first run (ex: Stoned, The Bronze Doors).

  12. #57
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    Yeah...but for me, when it comes to superheroes, the core of the character stems from the origin, the power set and the costume. You change those things too much and you have a different character. These are comics, not literary fiction.

    DC tried to convince me with the end of The Truth arc that the origin doesnít matter. Pfft. I didnít accept that then. Donít accept it now.
    How often does the exact origin matter to any superhero story? Most Superman stories work just fine no matter what destroyed Krypton, the exact age baby Clark was (newborn? A toddler?), or whether both the Kents are still alive when he debuts in Metropolis. Does knowing whether she was made from clay or born more naturally really change how she handles Cheetah?

    The powers tend towards the classic with fluctuations over the years, the costume remains fairly consistent with the occasional updating or periodic bad idea change up every decade or so, so really it is the core that most matters. Clay or Zeus affects her core about as much as the details of my birth affect who I am - not particularly important, being raised by my parents was far more responsible for who I turned out to be...which is why Hippolyta and the other Amazons are far more important to Diana's story.

  13. #58
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    The fluctuation of powers can be explained by this simple idea the power of belief. If you believe in the gods being all powerful like diana and being their creation of course they will be hard to beat. If you just think they are figments of the imagination or aliens like batman they will be easier to beat. If you do not believe in them at all like Helena Bertenelli they will never appear to you or affect you at all. It depends on faith or imagination. I think Neil Gaiman introduced this concept with the endless this should be the explaination universe wide to this issue. The more you believe in them the supernatural the stronger they will be against you. I wish they adopted this idea and will explain the power issues for the supernatural deities or demons that is the practioniors of the occult in the DCU

  14. #59
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is about where I am, particularly the bolded segments. Marston and Rucka are definitely my top WW creators.

    But yeah, Aphrodite was a major missed opportunity in Azzarello's run. I'm not wild about Owl Woman Athena either, but at least she's a bit more active, even if it's mostly in service to daddy (ugh).



    Her conception is not her origin. Her origin involves being raised by Hippolyta and the Amazons (who thankfully are not murderers anymore), being an Amazon princess, having Athena and Aphrodite included among her patrons and being prominent, coming from a society with technological advancements on a mystical island, Steve crashes on the island due to war/Ares related shenanigans, she wins the Contest, gets the costume and takes him home to become a superhero and spread the ideals of peace and love. It's not different enough, nor does the revelation of her demigod status undo her interactions with other characters in the run, which were all in character.

    I'm not super into the Zeus origin, at least not how it is implemented most of the time, but I'm no longer all that into the clay birth either. It's proved off putting to enough creators and fans (and we can assume that plenty of the latter group includes female fans) that it's probably not worth keeping around anymore. The more essential elements are still in place, and Rucka's Rebirth run shows that you can write a run focused more on Hippolyta and women in general with Zeus being her father, and it not negatively impacting the narrative in any significant way.
    Where is your evidence that the clay origin was off putting to any fans before it was changed?

    Iím not reading the title but the comments on this board indicate that since Rucka left the book hasnít been focused on Hippolyta and women at all.
    You were a wonder, Wonder Woman!

  15. #60
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    How often does the exact origin matter to any superhero story? Most Superman stories work just fine no matter what destroyed Krypton, the exact age baby Clark was (newborn? A toddler?), or whether both the Kents are still alive when he debuts in Metropolis. Does knowing whether she was made from clay or born more naturally really change how she handles Cheetah?
    If the revolutionary and symbolic statement Marston was making with his origin is unimportant to you, then I guess it wouldn’t matter.
    You were a wonder, Wonder Woman!

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