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  1. #61
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    He wasn't originally but Tynion made him into one. He had impossible tech, impossible hacking feats and characters were always espousing about how great and smart he is.

    I don't think Duke is the reason for Tim's treatment at DC. Damian might be, not as a replacement but as a more dynamic and marketable alternative.

    I think Tim was in decline when Red Robin ended and he went into freefall with the Nu52.

    One major flaw with Tim in current comics is his hacker/genius persona. Comics are a visual medium and a guy tapping away at his wrist computer is not as visually appealing as Dicks acrobatics or Damian riding into battle on an enormous red bat monster.
    I disagree. A Gary Stu is a character is one who has like no flaws, Tim had plenty of flaws even under Tynion's pen. For as much as Tim was praised for his smarts, he was also called out just as much for his flaws, especially towards the end of Tynion's run.

    No one in the Bat Fam is a Gary Stu, people just like to throw that out for some reason.

    I agree with most of what has been said already. Tim's problem isn't because of other characters, but rather a lack of interest to use him in the way that he should. By editorial.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I wouldn't go so far as to claim Tim was a Gary Stu, but a lot of the stuff about his introduction to the mythos seems a bit much. He figures out Bruce and Dick's identities, he's hailed as a better detective than Dick and has the potential to surpass Bruce, is the best fighter of the Robins at the time, is said to be better overall than his immediate predecessor, is reluctant to take the role but relents when he says Batman needs a Robin and proceeds to become the best Robin, is a serious consideration to become Batman's true heir over Dick, and everyone got along with him.

    To me at least, that has more red flags than Damian, who even as Batman in the possible future is said to be less effective than either Bruce or Dick, and everyone hates the little brat initially.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wouldn't say he has the least amount of material to work with when he had a solo run that lasted 100+ issues, which is more then some of the other Robins can say.
    Yes, but he did it as Robin, which is a brand that's bigger than he is as an individual character. It's bigger than all the individual characters who wore the mantle. Take away the mantle and all of them can struggle for a bit until a new niche is found, but Tim seems to have struggled more than the others. Damian is a more marketable and dynamic alternative, and has a popular dynamic with Batman and Nightwing.

    Tim's solo as Robin also came at a time when Batman's brand was reaching new heights and could start sustaining many solo spin off books. If Dick was Robin and got a new costume, he could have probably sustained the same amount. Especially since he was the Robin in other media wearing the updated costume given to Tim, so Tim cannot even claim that he was the only Robin in the 90s.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to claim Tim was a Gary Stu, but a lot of the stuff about his introduction to the mythos seems a bit much. He figures out Bruce and Dick's identities, he's hailed as a better detective than Dick and has the potential to surpass Bruce, is the best fighter of the Robins at the time, is said to be better overall than his immediate predecessor, is reluctant to take the role but relents when he says Batman needs a Robin and proceeds to become the best Robin, is a serious consideration to become Batman's true heir over Dick, and everyone got along with him.
    He was never said to be a better fighter than the other Robins (it was actually more the opposite) and the thing with him being a better Detective than Dick, was also something that started way after his introduction.

  4. #64
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    He might have been at some point, the list of claims from other characters about Tim would get pretty abundant.
    Last edited by Godlike13; Today at 09:50 AM.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    He was never said to be a better fighter than the other Robins (it was actually more the opposite) and the thing with him being a better Detective than Dick, was also something that started way after his introduction.
    I could have sword I read at one point he was considered the best fighter among the Robins. Wasn't he trained by Lady Shiva?

  6. #66
    Long Live The Phantom Aioros22's Avatar
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    Yes but one of the reasons he used a Bo staff was because he wasn`t as physically adept at fighting as Dick and Jason. Dick was a born acrobat and Jason was obviously familiar with street fighting considering that in his introduction it takes a gang of teenagers older than him to pin him down after he kicks two of them.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I don't think "they" really "hated" Tim and his generation.
    I think that the problem was more about the de-aging of the main DC characters and then not being able to logically work in all the other generations to a new, shortened timeline. (Look at all the complaints from DC trying to hang onto all the male Robins without having Dick start his career as a pre-teen!)
    Yet the cartoons have no issue with Tim's generation and the old guys.

    For all the keep Batman under 45 or whatever-he and Clark still got kids.

    Yet there is no place for Tim's group. The group who could SELL books-Tim, Conner, Bart, Cass, Jaime, Jason & Static. The folks people cared about-Cassie, Ms Martian, Stephanie and Artemis.

    The guys SOMEBODY could actually write instead of being vague like the ongoing saga known as Duke Thomas is.

    Yeah they got an issue with this generation and Marvel say "THANKS". Less competition for Miles, Nadia, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl & Ms Marvel. Help us all if they restart Yong Avengers.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I could have sword I read at one point he was considered the best fighter among the Robins. Wasn't he trained by Lady Shiva?
    The Shiva "training" was quite short, and even after it he wasn't such a great fighter and got still his ass kicked, for examle by Lynx.

    And he even said himself that wasn't that good in the physical part of the training.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    Dick was a born acrobat and Jason was obviously familiar with street fighting considering that in his introduction it takes a gang of teenagers older than him to pin him down after he kicks two of them.
    Actually it were 3 guys.




  10. #70
    Incredible Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    I think in Tec, Future Bat Tim defeated Jason, Dick and Damian all at the same time because he practiced all their moves in a simulation or some other nonsense. I can't remember exactly.

  11. #71
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to claim Tim was a Gary Stu, but a lot of the stuff about his introduction to the mythos seems a bit much. He figures out Bruce and Dick's identities, he's hailed as a better detective than Dick and has the potential to surpass Bruce, is the best fighter of the Robins at the time, is said to be better overall than his immediate predecessor, is reluctant to take the role but relents when he says Batman needs a Robin and proceeds to become the best Robin, is a serious consideration to become Batman's true heir over Dick, and everyone got along with him.

    To me at least, that has more red flags than Damian, who even as Batman in the possible future is said to be less effective than either Bruce or Dick, and everyone hates the little brat initially.




    Yes, but he did it as Robin, which is a brand that's bigger than he is as an individual character. It's bigger than all the individual characters who wore the mantle. Take away the mantle and all of them can struggle for a bit until a new niche is found, but Tim seems to have struggled more than the others. Damian is a more marketable and dynamic alternative, and has a popular dynamic with Batman and Nightwing.

    Tim's solo as Robin also came at a time when Batman's brand was reaching new heights and could start sustaining many solo spin off books. If Dick was Robin and got a new costume, he could have probably sustained the same amount. Especially since he was the Robin in other media wearing the updated costume given to Tim, so Tim cannot even claim that he was the only Robin in the 90s.
    Tim is and always has been the worst fighter of the Robin boys, Tim himself admitted this. Even early on it was shown Dick was the better Detective over Tim, Tim himself even confirmed that by saying he hoped he'd become as good of a detective as Dick one day. What Tim had was potential, he wasn't the greatest at anything like a lot of people try to claim when he first started.

    Breaking in as Robin, while Tim may have been very level headed, he was bar none the weakest of the Robin's starting off. Dick, Jason, and especially Damian were all not only more impressive than Tim, but more qualified for the task.

  12. #72
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    No one in the Bat Fam is a Gary Stu, people just like to throw that out for some reason.
    Poor Cass...
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to claim Tim was a Gary Stu, but a lot of the stuff about his introduction to the mythos seems a bit much. He figures out Bruce and Dick's identities, he's hailed as a better detective than Dick and has the potential to surpass Bruce, is the best fighter of the Robins at the time, is said to be better overall than his immediate predecessor, is reluctant to take the role but relents when he says Batman needs a Robin and proceeds to become the best Robin, is a serious consideration to become Batman's true heir over Dick, and everyone got along with him.
    I don't remember any point where there was an argument that he was Bruce's "true heir" over Dick, I think most of the issue with his role in the family came when Damian showed up and immediately hated/tried to kill him.
    To me at least, that has more red flags than Damian, who even as Batman in the possible future is said to be less effective than either Bruce or Dick, and everyone hates the little brat initially.
    Even Tim was shown to be a bad Batman in a possible future.

    I think Dick is pretty much the only Robin who's ever been portrayed as being a decent Batman when it came to taking over the mantle.
    Yes, but he did it as Robin, which is a brand that's bigger than he is as an individual character. It's bigger than all the individual characters who wore the mantle. Take away the mantle and all of them can struggle for a bit until a new niche is found, but Tim seems to have struggled more than the others. Damian is a more marketable and dynamic alternative, and has a popular dynamic with Batman and Nightwing.
    But isn't it safe to say that a lot of Damian's marketability is also connected to his status as being Robin? Did that Kubert mini with his name on it (and Son of Batman in the title) sell at all?
    Tim's solo as Robin also came at a time when Batman's brand was reaching new heights and could start sustaining many solo spin off books. If Dick was Robin and got a new costume, he could have probably sustained the same amount. Especially since he was the Robin in other media wearing the updated costume given to Tim, so Tim cannot even claim that he was the only Robin in the 90s.
    He was the only one in the comics, unless we're taking this far enough to count the B:TAS tie-in comics .

    I think Tim is one of those unfortunate legacies who helped modernize and update an identity but ultimately had said modernization's/updates attached to their predecessors in adaptions (Cough) Wally (Cough).

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefthanded View Post
    I do disagree with how it would be hard to write a comic around Tim. Out of all the Robin's, he has the most Batman characteristics - detective skills, combat, strategy, etc (but definitely not at Bruce's level) - without the baggage of Batman. So, if you can write stories about Batman, you can write about Tim but with a less dark slant (although I disliked Tynion's future BatTim)
    Knock off Batman!!! Now even more watered down for that Extra Blandness!



    In other words....

    A Not Quite Sexy Nightwing

    A White Duke Thomas without the Meta Detective Skills.

    A Slighty Taller, less Bratty copy of Damian Wayne. We can call him Tim Wayne!


    I enjoyed his Red Robin solo but that was because Tim was on the Brink.

    He had more mental baggage than Batman so maybe Tim could be an unstable Batman.
    Last edited by dietrich; Today at 04:55 PM.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But isn't it safe to say that a lot of Damian's marketability is also connected to his status as being Robin? Did that Kubert mini with his name on it (and Son of Batman in the title) sell at all?

    .
    Kubert's Damian Son of Batman was shockingly bad but it still sold.

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