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  1. #9631
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    This is almost the flip of the black costume debate. I think just like with situation, it's not an absolute thing, it comes down to the artist.

  2. #9632
    Christopher! Fokken's Avatar
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    I attribute these complaints of Carol appearing masculine to the respective capability of the artist in question.

    Many artists have ....aesthetic handicaps(?)... that can prove challenging to successfully render figure variation. I know many of us have experienced the eye rolling frustration of select artists seemingly incapable of drawing children and/or teenagers for example. I mean, I understand that the comic book industry is largely built around hyperbolized bodies, but the idea that every teenage girl from 13 to 19 should be built like a lifeguard from Baywatch (is that reference lost on folks? I'm sure you get what I mean though right?) is just absurd. Basically -- bitty boobies have their place, and not every woman needs gravity defying volleyballs for breasts. The number of times I've nearly detached a retina from the extreme eye rolling induced by Jubilee or Pixie gaining 15-20 lbs of breasticles simply cannot be counted.
    Age, in general, is often a pretty big hurdle for many artists -- from babies to toddlers to senior citizens -- the range of "WTF" can be pretty amusing and cringe worthy.

    I feel the same handicap befalls many an artist in regard to short haired females. Particularly POWERFUL short haired females. Be it subconscious societal programming or just plain beauty-bias, these artists read "short hair" and lose all ability to translate "feminine". Because, in comics, femininity is predominantly quantified by lots of curves and lots of locks.

    Since Carol's Anka-fication, few artists have managed to please her fanbase on this subject. I feel that Marquez and Rocafort are two examples of artists who've done her justice.

    "Um, blah, blah, blah. And, Girl Power. Feminism, d'you know what I mean?"

  3. #9633
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    I loved Rocaforts Carol. Also Anka's and Veronica Fish.
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    Co-Host of the Attilan Rising Podcast - Episode 21 is now live! Adam ditches us for a Music Festival and we talk Black Bolt, Secret Warriors and Royals!
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    The Ultimates 2, Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur, Spider-Gwen, The Mighty Captain Marvel, Jessica Jones, Hawkeye, Hulk, Dr. Strange. Upcoming: Once and Future Kings

  4. #9634
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbarreilles View Post
    I disagree completely Carol still looks very feminine and looks like well a woman just because she has more noticeable muscles and abs and just because she has shorter hair doesn't means she's being made to look masculine and stripped of any femininity or doesn't look like a woman anymore that's honesty ridiculous to even say that's what's happening.
    I think it's hard to deny the fact though that Carol in more recent times hasn't been many times over presented as extremely masculine or male looking at some points..

    Personally I prefer the long hair there's women in the military with long hair. Regardless I don't dislike the short hair and can live with it as long as Carol looks like she's not Steve.

    Marvel vs Capcom went in a direction I think that would make people appeal to Carol. Look for reactions in regards to Carol in Marvel vs Capcom infinite

    This statue had shorter hair but still got praise.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mf__XiVs8rc
    A lot of complaints Carol gets is based on her appearance now a days in comics.

    This guy gets a lot of views in regards to Carol and basically spotlights her because of the appearance.

  5. #9635
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    Attachment 51659
    A little masculine but thought it was cool
    This is fanart, I love the costume design though and hope we get something similar.

  6. #9636
    Fantastic Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    Marvel vs Capcom went in a direction I think that would make people appeal to Carol. Look for reactions in regards to Carol in Marvel vs Capcom infinite

    This statue had shorter hair but still got praise.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mf__XiVs8rc
    A lot of complaints Carol gets is based on her appearance now a days in comics.

    This guy gets a lot of views in regards to Carol and basically spotlights her because of the appearance.
    Are those supposed to be good examples to be followed? No, thanks. I prefer Marvel to do everything the OPPOSITE of what this guy and his subscribers want just for the sake of not giving them the satisfaction. Just scrolling through the comments you can see that most people there don't truly care about Carol, they just want jerk off material and a reason to complain about SJWs. And I'm sure that even if she looked what they consider to be feminine 100% of the time, they'd still be bashing her for her ideals or personality, because she would still be a feminist and they would still hate that. At the end of day, a good story direction, a good marketing and a good movie is what can salvage Carol, not people judging her solely because of how she looks.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 07-17-2017 at 08:53 AM.

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  8. #9638
    Christopher! Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Is that good? I don't even know. Reading numbers is like reading hieroglyphics. I need a translator.
    "Um, blah, blah, blah. And, Girl Power. Feminism, d'you know what I mean?"

  9. #9639
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    It's borderline. Books that do less than 20k are more likely to be cancelled, unless digital sales are good.

  10. #9640
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    Captain Marvel has pretty much always sold around 20k after the dropoff from the first few issues.

  11. #9641
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    I attribute these complaints of Carol appearing masculine to the respective capability of the artist in question.

    Many artists have ....aesthetic handicaps(?)... that can prove challenging to successfully render figure variation. I know many of us have experienced the eye rolling frustration of select artists seemingly incapable of drawing children and/or teenagers for example. I mean, I understand that the comic book industry is largely built around hyperbolized bodies, but the idea that every teenage girl from 13 to 19 should be built like a lifeguard from Baywatch (is that reference lost on folks? I'm sure you get what I mean though right?) is just absurd. Basically -- bitty boobies have their place, and not every woman needs gravity defying volleyballs for breasts. The number of times I've nearly detached a retina from the extreme eye rolling induced by Jubilee or Pixie gaining 15-20 lbs of breasticles simply cannot be counted.
    Age, in general, is often a pretty big hurdle for many artists -- from babies to toddlers to senior citizens -- the range of "WTF" can be pretty amusing and cringe worthy.

    I feel the same handicap befalls many an artist in regard to short haired females. Particularly POWERFUL short haired females. Be it subconscious societal programming or just plain beauty-bias, these artists read "short hair" and lose all ability to translate "feminine". Because, in comics, femininity is predominantly quantified by lots of curves and lots of locks.

    Since Carol's Anka-fication, few artists have managed to please her fanbase on this subject. I feel that Marquez and Rocafort are two examples of artists who've done her justice.

    I mean, Catwoman and the Wasp both have short hair but I doubt you would see anyone claim they're not feminine.

    Granted, they're Catwoman and The Wasp .

    (although there have been some...passionate discussions about Catwoman's hair in her Appreciation Thread).

  12. #9642
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    Naturally. Catwoman used to have long hair until about a decade ago. Of course she'll have fans who want her to grow it long again. Just like Carol's fanbase.

    Wasp though, is rarely seen with her hair longer than a bob, at least in 616. Because she's always had short hair, fans don't have any issue with it.

  13. #9643
    HAIL SUMMERS dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Naturally. Catwoman used to have long hair until about a decade ago. Of course she'll have fans who want her to grow it long again. Just like Carol's fanbase.

    Wasp though, is rarely seen with her hair longer than a bob, at least in 616. Because she's always had short hair, fans don't have any issue with it.
    Well, Janet has never looked like when Hank Pym wore the suit instead.

    And Catwoman spends a lot of time with that mask that cover her whole head except the lower part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    Is that good? I don't even know. Reading numbers is like reading hieroglyphics. I need a translator.
    Well, it's just above the cancellation line; so there is that.
    You know, it's funny that DisMarvel keeps proving that "CYCLOPS WAS RIGHT"; even when he is dead.

  14. #9644
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Are those supposed to be good examples to be followed? No, thanks. I prefer Marvel to do everything the OPPOSITE of what this guy and his subscribers want just for the sake of not giving them the satisfaction. Just scrolling through the comments you can see that most people there don't truly care about Carol, they just want jerk off material and a reason to complain about SJWs. And I'm sure that even if she looked what they consider to be feminine 100% of the time, they'd still be bashing her for her ideals or personality, because she would still be a feminist and they would still hate that. At the end of day, a good story direction, a good marketing and a good movie is what can salvage Carol, not people judging her solely because of how she looks.
    I agree a lot of the people don't seem to have appeal to Carol on the video but what the guys saying is pretty spot on. Just his lack of sugarcoating it makes him come off as dousche.

    Logically it's about getting people to draw towards Carol and a lot of the stuff Marvel has been doing is drawing people away from the character to the point some people are hating her...

    There is no denying Carol has atleast Modernly has also had an unappealing personality to match the look people are finding unappealing. So it's a real head scratcher on why nothings being changed.

  15. #9645
    Fantastic Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFacedKid View Post
    I agree a lot of the people don't seem to have appeal to Carol on the video but what the guys saying is pretty spot on. Just his lack of sugarcoating it makes him come off as dousche.

    Logically it's about getting people to draw towards Carol and a lot of the stuff Marvel has been doing is drawing people away from the character to the point some people are hating her...

    There is no denying Carol has atleast Modernly has also had an unappealing personality to match the look people are finding unappealing. So it's a real head scratcher on why nothings being changed.
    The thing is: complaints or praises about her look is just shallow talk. It's just scratching the surface of a much deeper and bigger problem Carol has right now. Let's do a mental exercise and imagine that everything that has been happening with her so far had happened while she was also being as feminine and as ''hot'' as possible... would fan reaction REALLY be all that different? Sure, you'd have a few less people calling her a ''butch'' and ''dyke'', but at the end of the day, she would still be the same. Looks can't erase Civil War II and the terrible repercussion it had during and after the event. Looks can't erase people feeling like Marvel is trying too hard with the Carol push. Looks can't erase low sales and constant relaunches. Looks can't erase some of the complaints made on this very thread, by her very own fans and readers who are disappointed with her current solo. And some of that stuff happened WHILE she was drawn in a way that's considered feminine (CWII, for instance). And that's what it all comes down to: if most things wouldn't change, then that's because looks are NOT the root of her problem.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 07-17-2017 at 12:31 PM.

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