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  1. #24541
    Elder Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    I don't blame Jeen - just idiotic editors who think this love triangle garbage is entertaining rather than excruciating.

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  2. #24542
    remember the titans Endsong's Avatar
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    About the X on the costume thing, isn't Scott still wearing his Champions costume in that title? With the big X on it?

    "You are here. You fought the weekend war, and you made it to the other side. Welcome to Monday; you can be anyone here. This is a new day, a new beginning, a new chance to be great. We are wiser and wilder than we were yesterday. Go kiss a stranger. Scream your favorite song from the top of the tallest building. You have the right to remain rock and roll. This is the end of the innocence; youth wasn't wasted on us. Now get out there, and write your story." - Brian Logan Dales, The Summer Set

  3. #24543
    Veteran Member ladyofthelake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanutsinspace View Post
    Hi. I feel like you're projecting some issues or something onto a fictional character. You accused her of emotionally manipulating people, stealing leadership and toying with Scott's emotions.
    Hi, first off, please stop assuming that my interpretation of the actions being portrayed have anything to do with me projecting anything. I am merely analyzing the situation and characters as they are being presented. Second, thank you for taking the time to talk on this thread. I for one have no problem defending my points and thoughts on the issue.

    Third, I never said she stole the leadership off of anyone. I said this version of Jeen was a lousy leader. And I made quite a few pointed comments on the whys and the hows that I think that was. This Jeen, since coming into the present has been using her powers in ways that leave me wondering about her moral sense in their regards. The real Jean had the professor to guide Jean and create a sense of morality and rules and limits into how she should and would use her telepathy and that gave that Jean a solid framework to build a strong moral code for herself.

    This Jeen never had that. In fact this Jeen had the complete opposite. When she used her powers, telepathy, they got mad at her but there were never any real consequences to her actions. This is a huge problem because they gave her the erroneous impression that since she had the power, she could do whatever she wanted with it and not get in trouble or hurt anyone. When she manipulated Warren by erasing his mind and manipulating it into thinking he was never going to leave, no one really lit into her. No one punished her, everyone was wary but they just shrugged it off because she was "Jean Grey" and a teenager.

    This was only the start of what a twisted moral compass she has in regards to her powers. Just recently she was given access to Magneto's mind spoilers:
    and she made sure she kept a "backdoor" or something similar to his head. He trusted her enough to poke in his brain and she betrayed that trust. And yes, he might not be trustworthy but that still didn't give her the right to violate his mind like that.
    end of spoilers It wasn't the only time either. When they were training, she went into Tyke's mind, granted with his permission to increase the strength of his blasts and that almost got him killed because then he underestimated how strong they could be with the train cart.

    She is irresponsible, doesn't think before acting and while this is certainly teenage behavior, it is not behavior that should be a constant in someone who is supposed to lead them. She can't be reckless because the next time she decides to try something in the field, it might end up costing someone their lives. THAT is the main reason that I can't see her leading them.

    You however don't take into account that she's a teenager.
    Yes, actually I do, but that doesn't excuse nor change her actions.

    She and Scott were in love before they came to the future and then they discover that their future's suck and they both decided not to pursue anything. But they're teens. They're teens trying to grow up but dealing with the same teen drama that all teens deal with on top of hormones. Nobody is purposefully playing or toying with people's emotions. Scott and Jean are close, they always will be and they love each other, they always will and that gets complicated but you can't expect teenagers to behave like 30 year olds. They're going to be teens and that includes all the messy, nonsensical stuff that teens do.
    Yes, of course, but I honestly don't know what this is in response to other than the emotional manipulation that you mention.

    Jeen isn't being cruel to Scott, there's not some dark, ulterior motive here and she's not preventing Scott from moving on.
    Nope, sorry, but she is. She might not mean to do it and I never said she had some evil, dark purpose to it, but she is. First, she knows that Tyke likes her. Knows, knows, knows that he likes her. The guy is about as subtle as a elephant in a china shop. So she knows he likes her, knows they would get married, knows she died when she was, so she decides she doesn't want that. Understandable. But then she keeps sending all the mixed signals. Tells him, I don't want us to be together while doing things to keep him on the hook. Which is being cruel, specially when she goes around with other guys in front of him.

    The last issue of ANXM, the first thing she does upon seeing Tyke is not a friendly, hi, or a hug, no, she plasters herself all over his back, in a way that is anything but friendly, then when he kisses her, she is all, oh wow, wait a sec, I just want to be friends but while we're at it, c'mon you so need to join me on this which in turn draws the others more easily to the team and her. This is toying with his emotions and it is cruel and callous to do that to someone who likes you. You don't need to be an adult to know or see that. And that is only this recent time. I could mention the others but I already have and if you want, feel free to read them. And no, I very much doubt she is doing it out of some horrible, diabolical plan but she wants to get her way and she uses what she has, maybe not always, and I do think not always on purpose, but other times, yes she most definitely does.

    And no, I don't think Jeen is necessarily stopping Tyke from moving on, but when the gal you like keeps giving you mixed signals then it makes it very hard for Tyke, who really likes her, to be able to get on with someone else since she keeps the hope alive that she might one day want to be with him.

    As for the emotional manipulation, if you think Jeen isn't using their feelings for her to get her way then you haven't been reading the comics.

    All that being said, I am mostly frustrated because I really liked the idea of them being brought to the present and some of the stuff Bendis did with them in the early issues. And I'm also frustrated because Blue had so much potential before they decided to reduce Jeen to a trophy and Tyke to a jealous loser that is obsessed with Jeen. Bleh. I hate love triangles and this one coming up sucks.

  4. #24544
    Veteran Member ladyofthelake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endsong View Post
    About the X on the costume thing, isn't Scott still wearing his Champions costume in that title? With the big X on it?
    Not in Blue, I don't know about Champions. The X surrounded by a circle is now like that of his 1990s uniform.

  5. #24545
    remember the titans Endsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladyofthelake View Post
    Not in Blue, I don't know about Champions. The X surrounded by a circle is now like that of his 1990s uniform.
    Well, the thing is that Cyclops has two different costumes entirely in Blue and Champions. I'm pretty sure that he has the X in his Champions look.

    "You are here. You fought the weekend war, and you made it to the other side. Welcome to Monday; you can be anyone here. This is a new day, a new beginning, a new chance to be great. We are wiser and wilder than we were yesterday. Go kiss a stranger. Scream your favorite song from the top of the tallest building. You have the right to remain rock and roll. This is the end of the innocence; youth wasn't wasted on us. Now get out there, and write your story." - Brian Logan Dales, The Summer Set

  6. #24546
    Veteran Member ladyofthelake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endsong View Post
    Well, the thing is that Cyclops has two different costumes entirely in Blue and Champions. I'm pretty sure that he has the X in his Champions look.
    Really? Huh. I thought they were going to make him have only one. Hmm.

  7. #24547
    Junior Member MeloDet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I don't blame Jeen - just idiotic editors who think this love triangle garbage is entertaining rather than excruciating.
    Yeah, basically. I may have issues with Jeen moving on while Tyke clings (for example), but those are issues with the way the stories are being written, not with Jeen herself. I had issues with her in the beginning in regards to the mind control stuff, and I do wish that was dealt with a little more strongly, but the only (current) issue I might take is that I do think she was acting overly close to Tyke while trying to put distance between them. But as Peanuts said that's sort of the nature of the beast what with them being teenagers, and I've known way too many people that don't realize the effect that that level of physical intimacy can have. If Jeen feels that close to Tyke and is acting that way out of instinct without realizing that it'll make it harder for him to move on, then I don't really have any issue with her because of it.

    Someone ask this girl for help!
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    Man the Yandere girl in that show makes Vileena look positively stable.

  8. #24548
    Veteran Member ladyofthelake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I don't blame Jeen - just idiotic editors who think this love triangle garbage is entertaining rather than excruciating.

    Someone ask this girl for help!
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    Save us, Guri! Your notebook may be our only hope!
    As per your usual, Grey. Always hitting at the heart of the matter. I would love for them to write the team in a great way. I would be cheering that on, but frankly at this point I was just it to end and let the real versions come back and we can get back to the real X-Men stories not this bizarre mix of stories and teams.

  9. #24549

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    Hi, it's hard not to assume because a lot of these observations seemed more than a little personal in nature. You assume much for fictional characters such as adding emotional attachments to them that don't seem to be portrayed in book.

    This version of Jeen has just begun leading, it's quite a bit to blame her when she just took over. She has a lot to learn, but the others have put their faith in her and are giving her a chance, I think she's afforded that. We saw her lead one mission, though remember who is giving them the missions and instructing them on how to proceed, that's Magneto, not Jeen. Scott even mentions in Blue #1 that they brought Black Tom down publicly, just like Magneto wanted. So while she may be team lead, she's not designing the mission ops. I agree that she has a lot to learn, but the book has just started. I think it's only fair to give her a chance before condemning her so soon.

    As for her powers and the use of them, it's true, she never had Xavier to guide her in the use of her telepathy, she had Emma Frost as a mentor and that was because Adult Cyke felt she should be trained by her. Before that, yes, she *did* abuse her powers up until Kitty told her to cut it out and to stop scaring the others. Jeen *was* called out for the abuse of her abilities, though I will note, not specifically for the Angel thing, but she was confronted and since then, she's asked permission before entering the minds of others.

    As for Blue #2

    spoilers:
    In regard to the Magneto scene, Jeen never mentions creating a backdoor. When he let her into his mind, she thought he might be watching her, making sure she only saw what he wanted her to see. So she created duplicates to keep his attention busy while she searched for any ulterior motives he might have. She found none, she believed that *he* believed he was telling the truth and when she saw his memory from the concentration camp, she was moved. She wasn't sneaky for the sake of abusing her powers, she did what she did to make sure that before she brought her friends back together under Magneto's leadership, that he wasn't pulling a fast one on them. After all, as she told him, for her, it was like yesterday that he was their enemy.
    end of spoilers

    The power boost was something that the adult Jean had done before as well, so I don't see that as an abuse of power. Also, nowhere in the text does it say nor does Scott say that he underestimated his abilities because of the power boost. She boosted Angel as well and he managed fine.

    We don't know if it's a constant though. Jeen was on the EXM team and seemed to manage just fine without going crazy with it. I think she can manage as leader as well. Their first mission was a success, no one died, no one was hurt and they were heroes. Nothing Jeen did was dangerous or reckless or threw anybody into harms way. She didn't sense Juggy as the helmet protects him from telepathy. His being there was something unforeseen but handled through teamwork.

    Other than ANX 19, which I admit was strange behavior, what things has Jeen done to lead Cyke on? One of the first things she does in that book is hug him, that's when she says 'God, I've missed you." It isn't until much later, after he storms out that she goes after him and presses herself against his back. Also, if you'll recall, when they're in the past and Scott is over the moon that they're back, Jeen tells Hank he should have explained first, she later tells him that he needs to tell Scott, then she says, "This is getting out of control, Scott is...you need to end this." The next page, when Hank takes them to their fight with Unus The Untouchable, Scott is just about to go fight him when Jeen says to Hank, "Now would be a good time to tell him." She was concerned about Scott, about his feelings and what it would do to him. That doesn't seem like she's toying with his emotions.

    As soon as Scott flips out, Jeen is the only person to go after him. That's where she leans against him and tells him that they go forward and that it's going to be great. After he kisses her, she explains to him they need to move forward, not back and then spends the rest of the issue, trying to cheer him up and bring him out of his funk. I don't see anything wrong with that.

    I think it's unfair to lay all of the relationship drama solely on Jeen. Don't forget that she loves him too and it's confusing for her as well. There's a part of her that wants to be with him and there's the part that knows that can't happen if they both want to be happy when they're older. That's on both of them. Jeen doesn't solely get the blame for that. Scott is just as capable of moving on and getting himself a girl. After he kissed Jeen did she chastise him? Nope. She understood, she didn't make him feel bad for it or guilty. She explained why neither one of them could do that and initially she said, "I can't." Not, "You can't."

    Please show me a recent scan where Jeen is emotionally manipulating Scott or the others. I'm not talking about Bendis' run, since Jeen has grown so much since then (and was admittedly, not written to be such a great person). Give me something recent.

    I like Blue and since we're only two issues in, I don't see what you're seeing. I'm optimistic for both characters and want to see what's going to happen.

  10. #24550
    About damn time. Bart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladyofthelake View Post

    Third, I never said she stole the leadership off of anyone. I said this version of Jeen was a lousy leader. And I made quite a few pointed comments on the whys and the hows that I think that was. This Jeen, since coming into the present has been using her powers in ways that leave me wondering about her moral sense in their regards. The real Jean had the professor to guide Jean and create a sense of morality and rules and limits into how she should and would use her telepathy and that gave that Jean a solid framework to build a strong moral code for herself.

    This Jeen never had that. In fact this Jeen had the complete opposite. When she used her powers, telepathy, they got mad at her but there were never any real consequences to her actions. This is a huge problem because they gave her the erroneous impression that since she had the power, she could do whatever she wanted with it and not get in trouble or hurt anyone. When she manipulated Warren by erasing his mind and manipulating it into thinking he was never going to leave, no one really lit into her. No one punished her, everyone was wary but they just shrugged it off because she was "Jean Grey" and a teenager.

    This was only the start of what a twisted moral compass she has in regards to her powers. Just recently she was given access to Magneto's mind spoilers:
    and she made sure she kept a "backdoor" or something similar to his head. He trusted her enough to poke in his brain and she betrayed that trust. And yes, he might not be trustworthy but that still didn't give her the right to violate his mind like that.
    end of spoilers It wasn't the only time either. When they were training, she went into Tyke's mind, granted with his permission to increase the strength of his blasts and that almost got him killed because then he underestimated how strong they could be with the train cart.

    She is irresponsible, doesn't think before acting and while this is certainly teenage behavior, it is not behavior that should be a constant in someone who is supposed to lead them. She can't be reckless because the next time she decides to try something in the field, it might end up costing someone their lives. THAT is the main reason that I can't see her leading them.
    Wait what? Did you even the read the issue.? Jean didn't keep a backdoor to Magneto's head. He let her in willingly because he asked her for help. To protect herself, and her teammates which she was going to ask to come along, she had to do some digging around to make sure he wasn't hiding anything or lying. She kept decoys so he wouldn't know where she was looking and perhaps plant false memories.

    As for boosting Cyclops' powers the who point is it was a training session to prepare. It's a training session so of course mistakes were going to be made--that's the whole point. If they were perfect, they wouldn't need to train. If anything it shows she's thinking ahead as a leader and making sure in case Magneto double crosses them that they do have the means to take him down through practice and preparation.

    Besides are we really throwing the moral compass word around as some sort of pre-req for leadership when adult Cyclops who DID have the tutelage of Xavier ended up running death squads? cheating on his wife? Not to mention the moral compass of his co-leader who read minds willy nilly even to this day and is way more manipulative than you think Jean can ever be. Never seen you have a problem with either's moral compass and their and thus their role as leader, but when Jean does it, it makes her a lousy leader? Ok.

    Jean's leader because she initiated their stay, got them back together, and is the catalyst for this series. They listen to her because she's poised and in control whereas as last we saw Cyclops he was a mess after what Emma did to his "name."
    Last edited by Bart; Today at 10:01 PM.

  11. #24551
    Junior Member MeloDet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peanutsinspace View Post
    As for her powers and the use of them, it's true, she never had Xavier to guide her in the use of her telepathy, she had Emma Frost as a mentor and that was because Adult Cyke felt she should be trained by her. Before that, yes, she *did* abuse her powers up until Kitty told her to cut it out and to stop scaring the others. Jeen *was* called out for the abuse of her abilities, though I will note, not specifically for the Angel thing, but she was confronted and since then, she's asked permission before entering the minds of others.
    By and large I agree with you, but I do what to point out this one thing. Part of why some might feel as if Jeen wasn't called out for her abuse is that they don't feel she was called out strongly enough. Kitty gave her a talking to, sure, but personally reading that scene felt a little out of place with the severity of what she'd done. It also didn't help that it didn't seem to have much lasting impact in the actual comic. I would've expected Warren to outright resent Jeen after that and that it would take a serious apology after she'd realized her mistake for them to mend things, but the comic seemed to treat the issue as if it was solved after the conversation between her and Professor K.

  12. #24552

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    There's a vast difference between authorizing a death squad to go after your deadliest enemies when the mutant race is on the brink of extinction and forcibly messing with the mind of a teammate because he wanted to go back to their original time. :/

  13. #24553
    About damn time. Bart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    There's a vast difference between authorizing a death squad to go after your deadliest enemies when the mutant race is on the brink of extinction and forcibly messing with the mind of a teammate because he wanted to go back to their original time. :/
    What Jean did was wrong yes, but she did have repercussions for doing so. Sure some might argue Kitty should have been tougher on her, but she hasn't mind controlled a teammate since so you can say it was effective.

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