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  1. #30511
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Strictly speaking, all of this is already OBE. Scott and Jean reconciled and reaffirmed their feelings for each other in Phoenix Resurrection #5. If/when Scott comes back, that's the point from which he and Jean are going to pick up, not from the end of Morrison's run or Endsong. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get back together immediately or even soon thereafter--my bet is Marvel won't bring Scott back until Jean's paired off with someone else so as to maximize the drama.
    I'm pretty sure I've said the same here myself. It's unfortunate if they were to get together in that scenario. The haters will point out that's just one more nice thing Jean can't have because of Scott.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    There seems to be a fair amount of pining for a gradual, X-Factor-style rebuild of Jott, and, given Marvel's proclivities over the past decade, I see precisely zero appetite for that on Marvel's part. If/when Marvel puts Scott and Jean back together--either immediately upon his return or sometime later on--they'll want to move forward, not rehash what is in their view ancient history.
    Of course there is. That's the only effective way to deal with any of the broken relationships in Scott's life, including Jean. You are correct that Marvel seems disinclined. What I can't figure out is why. White seems to think that relationship drama sells books, and of course he's right. That's exactly what X-Factor was. Between Jean's return, Scott's marriage and the O5 dealing with Jean's lack of knowledge of it, not to mention Inferno and Jean dealing with her PF memories, the whole damn book was relationship drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    More and more, I'm warming up to the idea of leaving Scott dead. The interaction I'd really like to see is Jean and Emma, sharing their mourning. As a Jott shipper, I'd find it personally gratifying to see Jean give Emma the curbstomp she deserves. But, to be honest, that would be out of character for Jean. She's a bigger person than that and a nicer person than I.
    More and more I'm accepting it but I'm not warming up to it. There's no good reason for him to be gone an extended period of time (or at all really). The only positive I take from this is that it means Marvel acknowledges how great his influence on the books is and doesn't want to bring him back smaller than he was since they already have Tyke for that.

    As for Jean and Emma, Jean's already curbstomped Emma twice now. A third time would just seem gratuitous. It's ancient history now. For Jean to take out her feelings on Emma would seem petty. Frankly Jean doesn't seem too broken up that Scott's dead based on what's happening in Red. If she's grieving, it's entirely done off panel. I think Taylor is basically pretending that Scott never existed. I find it telling of how Marvel percieves the whole situation, that Emma was so much more fundamentally effected by Scott's death than Jean appears to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Instead, I think it'd make for a nice twist if they became close friends over the love they both have for Scott. It could even serve as a mechanism to bring Emma back to the side of the angels. Imagine Jean talking Emma down from a villainous action, pointing out that Scott wouldn't want that for her. Eventually, Emma collapses in grief, and Jean comforts her by sharing her grief. Tie off the immediate plot with the two of them standing side by side at Scott's grave. Emma apologizes to Jean for seducing Scott into the affair...and then promptly tells Jean to never tell anyone she apologized. The two of them then hug, recognizing they share something unique to the two of them in having loved Scott.
    It wasn't the issues with Scott that kept Jean and Emma from being close. It's that they have fundamentally different worldviews. Them both loving Scott doesn't close that gap in my mind. There's was a partnership based on mutual interest during Morrison's run. What Emma's getting up to with Mothervine is the perfect example of why her and Jean would never be friendship material. Even if she ends up double-crossing Ms Sinister and Bastion, it's a far too dangerous game for Jean's taste with collateral damage already.

  2. #30512
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    As for Jean and Emma, Jean's already curbstomped Emma twice now. A third time would just seem gratuitous. It's ancient history now. For Jean to take out her feelings on Emma would seem petty. Frankly Jean doesn't seem too broken up that Scott's dead based on what's happening in Red. If she's grieving, it's entirely done off panel. I think Taylor is basically pretending that Scott never existed. I find it telling of how Marvel percieves the whole situation, that Emma was so much more fundamentally effected by Scott's death than Jean appears to be.
    Theres alot about Jean's state of mind that we dont know. She and Scott effectively ended years ago in Morrison's run. She was resurrected in Endsong and existed within the WHR making minor appearances here and thre until we saw her as a ghost, interacting with teen Jean. She knew all that was going on with Scott and dealt with it. Now that she's back among the living, we dont know what she does or doesnt remember so we'll have to wait for the Red Annual to fill in those gaps and show how she deals with the immediate aftermath of Scott dying in her arms in PR

  3. #30513
    Spectacular Member JeisonWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Im of the mindset that Emma and Jean should NEVER be friends and definitely not bond bc they shared love for Scott. Thats a bit much. Unwilling allies at best
    I have a hard time imagining Jean and Emma as friends, if someone stole my girlfriend/wife I doubt that one day I could be friends with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    I agree. I have the same feeling toward Scott and Logan.
    I can't believe they are friends but in the end it seems that despite everything Scott and Logan are friends in some way.

  4. #30514
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Theres alot about Jean's state of mind that we dont know. She and Scott effectively ended years ago in Morrison's run. She was resurrected in Endsong and existed within the WHR making minor appearances here and thre until we saw her as a ghost, interacting with teen Jean. She knew all that was going on with Scott and dealt with it. Now that she's back among the living, we dont know what she does or doesnt remember so we'll have to wait for the Red Annual to fill in those gaps and show how she deals with the immediate aftermath of Scott dying in her arms in PR
    I don't really count Jean's time in the WHR. There's no way to know what she knew or didn't know, or if WPotC is even capable of grief given her relationship with birth and death. All I can really see is what's in black and white. Scott died and Emma went off the deep end, acting out in all kinds of ways that frankly I find verily believable for a super powered woman who loved Scott as much as she did, and lost him the way she did, and to whom she did. This went on over the course of two full mini's and a good chunk of Blue. I get that not everyone was in love with how crazy Emma went, but given her psychology and history, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility. Excepting the whole sentinel thing mind you. That was completely over the top.

    Meanwhile Taylor has one book to show us Jean's response. If it's there it will probably be a sidenote, heavily overshadowed by her friends who are actually alive, and the one's Taylor wants to right about.

    My point is that the response to Scott's death are completely disproportionate between the two women who loved him most. I'll wait and see but I seriously doubt Jean will spend a single panel struggling with his absence. Meanwhile poor Scott retires from the X-Men twice after her deaths because he can't bring himself to be in that house without her, only avoiding the second occasion through the consequences of HCT.

  5. #30515
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    I don't really count Jean's time in the WHR. There's no way to know what she knew or didn't know, or if WPotC is even capable of grief given her relationship with birth and death. All I can really see is what's in black and white. Scott died and Emma went off the deep end, acting out in all kinds of ways that frankly I find verily believable for a super powered woman who loved Scott as much as she did, and lost him the way she did, and to whom she did. This went on over the course of two full mini's and a good chunk of Blue. I get that not everyone was in love with how crazy Emma went, but given her psychology and history, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility. Excepting the whole sentinel thing mind you. That was completely over the top.

    Meanwhile Taylor has one book to show us Jean's response. If it's there it will probably be a sidenote, heavily overshadowed by her friends who are actually alive, and the one's Taylor wants to right about.

    My point is that the response to Scott's death are completely disproportionate between the two women who loved him most. I'll wait and see but I seriously doubt Jean will spend a single panel struggling with his absence. Meanwhile poor Scott retires from the X-Men twice after her deaths because he can't bring himself to be in that house without her, only avoiding the second occasion through the consequences of HCT.
    She was pretty much omniscient in the WHR and we do know that she kept up with Scott as she did make cameos surrounding him. She did during AvX when he became Phoenix. It stands to reason that she knew he died.

    No, I doubt much will be done with Scott in the Red annual, but that is the only logical place I can see it occuring. There is alot of ground to cover and the fact is that Scott is dead and Jean has alot of people she needs to reconnect with so if that will be the focus of the annual, then I think its appropriate. I think its different between Emma and Jean bc Emma was alive and Jean is coming back into a world that has changed. Scott isnt the only one dead. Xavier is. Logan is. Her entire family is. I think its acceptable to just assume that she's become numb and desensitized to death bc that is alot for one person to process. She striking out as a mutant leader could be a way of her deflecting and not having to deal with any of this and if so, I hope she has a breaking point down the line

    To be fair Jean DID retire from the X-men when Scott was presumed dead with Apocalypse Twelve storyline. She was brought back but his absence affected her. It was abit different bc she didnt truly believe he as dead and once she learned he was possibly alive, she raced off to fight for him.
    Last edited by Havok83; 04-16-2018 at 11:58 AM.

  6. #30516
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    She was pretty much omniscient in the WHR and we do know that she kept up with Scott as she did make cameos surrounding him. She did during AvX when he became Phoenix. It stands to reason that she knew he died.

    No, I doubt much will be done with Scott in the Red annual, but that is the only logical place I can see it occuring. There is alot of ground to cover and the fact is that Scott is dead and Jean has alot of people she needs to reconnect with so if that will be the focus of the annual, then I think its appropriate. I think its different between Emma and Jean bc Emma was alive and Jean is coming back into a world that has changed. Scott isnt the only one dead. Xavier is. Logan is. Her entire family is. I think its acceptable to just assume that she's become numb and desensitized to death bc that is alot for one person to process. She striking out as a mutant leader could be a way of her deflecting and not having to deal with any of this and if so, I hope she has a breaking point down the line

    To be fair Jean DID retire from the X-men when Scott was presumed dead with Apocalypse Twelve storyline. She was brought back but his absence affected her. It was abit different bc she didnt truly believe he as dead and once she learned he was possibly alive, she raced off to fight for him.
    Those are all good reasons, very sensible and even manage to fit the facts somewhat. I'd argue she seemed surprised he had died during PR and I read the scene as her having to read him mind to get what happened.

    Regardless, the problem is her response is completely lacking any emotional resonance. It doesn't matter that she may have already known and reacted to it, we didn't see it. Emma's reaction was visceral. So was Scott's after Jean's death. Jean's attitude in Red makes her come off as unfeeling and unrelatable. As you said, that's a lot of death to deal with. Most people would be a wreck, catatonic or have jumped off a bridge by now. The way Tom writes her in Red, it feels like just another day at the office. I think his approach of ignoring it all is actually doing the character a disservice and is not true at all to what's already been established.

    It makes Emma and Scott look the like the ones who actually cared. I don't want Jean to be overcome by this, but I think it's not unreasonable that his death would fundamentally effect her, as hers did him. That's a story Marvel kept reminding up about for many, many years from HCT to his death, not to mention the first time round in the 80's.

  7. #30517
    Spectacular Member Cyke is Slim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    I agree that Scott's character changed. I don't accept that makes him somehow incompatible with Jean. The reason why is that you're partially mis-characterizing who Jean is. Yes, her first instinct is to take a diplomatic approach. If you think that's the only round she has in the chamber you're very wrong. When push comes to shove there's this Jean too:



    or for something more recent...



    Jean didn't have to live through Decimation\Utopia\M-Pox. If she had I would suggest she would have fought just as hard as Scott to see mutants survive. I agree that her first instinct is to find a peaceful means of protecting her people but in many cases Scott didn't have that choice and neither would Jean have. As for sacrifice, Jean is just as familiar with that as Scott is. She's lost everything twice over for the X-Men.

    I also disagree that Scott's development couldn't have been done while he was with Jean. There are those who believe it, yourself included, but no proof of this claim is ever offered. Yes, Scott did change, but the changes had already begun before Jean's death. To suggest that something so radical had occurred to him that his best friend and spouse could no longer love him suggests that all his other friends were justified in turning their backs on him as well. When the X-Men did that it seemed contrived for dramatic effect. If Marvel had done that with Jean, it would have felt even more so, because at his core, Scott remained much the same man he always was. His values didn't change, only his willingness to follow them absolutely even if it meant the death's of the few mutants left. His goals didn't change, only the methods by which those goals could be attained, and even then only by degrees. In the end, his peaceful demonstration in UXM 600 shows that Scott yearned to find peaceful solutions. Jean's presence would only have helped with that.

    Scott fought a long war of attrition with his conscience and made compromises along the way. Do you really think Jean wouldn't have if she had lived through what Scott had? Maybe if she'd been around to support him, he'd have had to make less of those. The truth is that we'll never know for sure if their relationship could have survived the man he became or the woman she would have become. I would suggest though that it survived Jean's death, Scott's marriage to Maddie, and as we saw in PR5, their broken Morrison years -- all that bods well for them having made it.
    Agreed wholeheartedly.

  8. #30518
    Mighty Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Theres alot about Jean's state of mind that we dont know. She and Scott effectively ended years ago in Morrison's run. She was resurrected in Endsong and existed within the WHR making minor appearances here and thre until we saw her as a ghost, interacting with teen Jean. She knew all that was going on with Scott and dealt with it. Now that she's back among the living, we dont know what she does or doesnt remember so we'll have to wait for the Red Annual to fill in those gaps and show how she deals with the immediate aftermath of Scott dying in her arms in PR
    Taylor said that his story will ignore Scott body, because he need his story going forward

  9. #30519
    Spectacular Member Cyke is Slim's Avatar
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    Least favorite Cyclops costume?


  10. #30520
    Astonishing Member WhiteQueenEmmaFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke is Slim View Post
    Least favorite Cyclops costume?
    The one from the Bendis era. It looked nice, but I never understood how it worked and why the "X was so big.

  11. #30521
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteQueenEmmaFrost View Post
    The one from the Bendis era. It looked nice, but I never understood how it worked and why the "X was so big.
    It should’ve just had a black visor.

  12. #30522
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteQueenEmmaFrost View Post
    The one from the Bendis era. It looked nice, but I never understood how it worked and why the "X was so big.
    The worst thing about it was teh color. It should have been black or navy. I hated the red tint

  13. #30523
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke is Slim View Post
    Least favorite Cyclops costume?
    For me that be this one.


  14. #30524
    Spectacular Member Cyke is Slim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    For me that be this one.

    Lol, Erick The Red!

  15. #30525
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke is Slim View Post
    Lol, Erick The Red!
    Scott costumes seem to come in two varieties... bondage gear or full body condom.

    Emma's homage to Scott's costume in IvX manages a fusion of both looks.


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