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  1. #15166
    Veteran Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Marvel finally realized that they destroyed Cyclops's honor and moral credibility. The so called relationship with Emma, becoming a dictator, and him killing Xavier. He was ruined beyond repair and had to be replaced by Tyke.
    Hardly. Dictator? You make it sound like he was on the same level as Hitler. Characters and been far worse than Scott and turned out fine. He also had a convenient get out of jail plot device to redeem him which everyone seems to forget and that is The Void was trapped in his head. Not to mention being possessed by Dark Phoenix is what killed Xavier. Scott moved past all of that and remained a viable character 2 year later until they killed him off panel as a catalyst for the new status quo, not bc he was declared an irredeemable character
    Last edited by Havok83; 03-18-2017 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #15167
    Last of my kind ZNOP's Avatar
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    You forgot to throw in the "It was Apocalypse's influence" excuse...
    Time travel is optional.
    "Off panel", is a laughable defense.
    If it wasn't printed... It didn't happen

  3. #15168
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    Jean made him feel insecure...

  4. #15169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Hardly. Dictator? You make it sound like he was on the same level as Hitler. Characters and been far worse than Scott and turned out fine. He also had a convenient get out of jail plot device to redeem him which everyone seems to forget and that is The Void was trapped in his head. Not to mention being possessed by Dark Phoenix is what killed Xavier. Scott moved past all of that and remained a viable character 2 year later until they killed him off panel as a catalyst for the new status quo, not bc he was declared an irredeemable character
    You don't kill off popular characters that everyone loves just for a new status quo. Clearly the character, as his adult self was written, was just a horrible mess. Possession by Dark Phoenix itself was absolutely stupid and AvX was just a nightmare. Still, he killed Xavier. Dark Phoenix aka Jean Grey killed off a planet of aliens. Cyclops killed off a man who was a surrogate father to him. After that he lost pretty much all the X-Men, and certainly almost all the Adult X-Men.

    But this is the Jean Grey thread, so if you want to further discuss Cyke we should do so on his thread.

  5. #15170
    Veteran Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    You don't kill off popular characters that everyone loves just for a new status quo. Clearly the character, as his adult self was written, was just a horrible mess. Possession by Dark Phoenix itself was absolutely stupid and AvX was just a nightmare. Still, he killed Xavier. Dark Phoenix aka Jean Grey killed off a planet of aliens. Cyclops killed off a man who was a surrogate father to him. After that he lost pretty much all the X-Men, and certainly almost all the Adult X-Men.

    But this is the Jean Grey thread, so if you want to further discuss Cyke we should do so on his thread.
    Um yeah you do. Marvel has done it plenty of times. They did it in Civil War with Captain America . They did it in AvX with Xavier. Hawkeye and Vision's deaths in Avengers Dissassembled completely changed the status quo there. A few years ago with Wolverine. Peter Parker's death was used to bring about a brand new status quo within the Spider-Man books. Jean's death back in DPS and her 2005 death, etc... I dont know what you are talking about bc they have a long history of killing off popular characters to shift the status quo in the books and characters
    Last edited by Havok83; 03-19-2017 at 06:04 AM.

  6. #15171
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    Honestly, Cyclops' actual actions during AvX were not really so obscene as to make him irredeemable, but it was more the way that he was portrayed in the story and the ways that fans reacted to it that really made it difficult to reset the character afterwards. The way he had been portrayed in the years leading up to the event seemed to take a really troubling turn because there was an increasing gap between how the stories clearly wanted us to see him, and how he actually came off. In particular, they seemed to be fixated on pushing this idea that Scott was the ultimate macho alpha male, and making sure to drive home the point that every woman in the vicinity couldn't help but be drawn to his rugged masculinity. Of course, whenever you see a point being made so forcefully, you know that they're compensating for something, and in this case it was clearly this perception that Scott was somehow less of a man because he had been "cucked" by Wolverine, and that it wasn't enough to kill Jean off, or turn Emma into a subservient concubine, or to have Scott slap Logan around every chance he got, they had to make sure every time he was on page that he was the ultimate badass lead dog, not some loser in a gimp suit who can't stop his wife from lusting after another man.

    So by the time the event rolled around, there was a clear separation between the fans who took everything the books presented at face value and idolized their hero as much as the X-Men did, and the fans who were sick of this kind of writing and wanted the story to be about something else for a change. Marvel tried to make everyone happy by using the tried and true trick of having Scott turn evil, but to do it in a "cool" way so that his fans would get to see him be a badass but his detractors would be happy to see him taken down. This of course just made everyone even more angry and turned AvX into one of those stories that everyone remembers for the wrong reasons, especially since the actual story is barely noteworthy and was written in a hasty and sloppy fashion by a group of writers who clearly weren't communicating with each other at all. Also, a lot of the posts on this board about the event got really heated and toxic, with some of the talk now seeming like a preview of some of the "alt right" rhetoric you hear coming out of Trump supporters and the like.

    Admittedly, I'm biased against Cyclops because I just never liked his personality and his design just makes him look goofy and non-threatening, and while I'm not exactly a huge Wolverine fan either I definitely preferred the chemistry that he had with Jean over anything of her and Scott together. But I feel like this whole debacle reeks of editorial fanboyism, trying so desperately to portray a character a certain way rather than simply allowing the story to evolve naturally that ultimately they could no longer keep it up and had to drop him for a while.

  7. #15172
    Veteran Member 5cents's Avatar
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    First X-Lady

  8. #15173
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5cents View Post
    Sea monsters? Okay...
    “Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.”
    -Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

  9. #15174
    Senior Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    2) The story arc of Scott and Jean's relationship was finished at the end of their first mini-series in 1994. The next logical step was to have them have more kids. Supposedly, Lobdell intended to do just that by having them have baby Rachel, but Harras nixed it. It ran afoul of aging the characters too much, change vs. illusion of change, etc. Putting them back together now runs into the same problem. The only new place to go with their relationship is the place that, with the exceptions of Reed/Sue and Cage/Jones, Marvel refuses to go. Putting Tyke and Jeen together would just be a rerun. Twice over, if you count Ultimate Scott and Jean.
    You can't do this with the teen characters, they ar epretty young anf bring some freshness.
    Can't do this with the adult ones because they are dead now and all the baggage of Scott cheating on Jean.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    You forgot to throw in the "It was Apocalypse's influence" excuse...
    It is never Scott's fault haha
    Last edited by spirit2011; 03-19-2017 at 07:02 AM.

  10. #15175
    Veteran Member 5cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Sea monsters? Okay...
    Yeah I was wondering if this ties into Monsters Unleashed (she does appear in their book). Though it would be interesting to see if Jean can communicate telepathically with these monsters.
    First X-Lady

  11. #15176

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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    I'm skeptical there's a market among the comics audience for it. It's been going on 15 years since there was a Jott. At this point, how many Jott shippers are left?

    Among a mainstream audience, yes. But, comics aren't made for nor marketed to a mainstream audience anymore.

    Beyond that, what story--other than, as I said, them starting a family and moving forward from there--is there left to tell with Scott/Jean that hasn't been told already? Like I said, Tyke/Jeen would just be recycling.
    Again, I would've agreed with that a couple years ago. However, the success of DC Rebirth and the emergence of Renew Your Vows has shown that there is an audience for it and that audience has money. Marvel is a business last I checked. And good businesses tap every market they can. So I don't think it's inconceivable that they would try to appeal to classic romances. They already did it in X-men: Apocalypse. They're still the main romance in other mediums, including X-men Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men. So it's not like that story has been completely forgotten or thrown away. It's still there and, depending on how the sequel to X-men: Apocalypse plays out, it may continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by lancer View Post
    In X FACTOR, I don't think anyone was harder on SCott than Scott. Maddie was trying to sacrifice ther kid and Scott is, don't hurt her, this is my fault, I did this to her. What I read about an issue, right after Morrison left, by Austen, I believe, was this. Scott at Jean's grave. Something like this. I suppose I'm sorry, but I don't know that I would have done anything differently. I remember my reaction reading about it. WTF, this is an apology?

    THen there was the Whedon issue where it seemed to me that SCott was turning his own crappy behavior on Logan who had spent the Morrison run trying to help the marriage. I used to ask this on forums since I wasn't reading. The originals attitude towards him. What was it. None of them knew about any psychic push. It would seem to me that they'd have the same attitude as Logan. IMO, that would not be something that should last an issue. More like a six to twelve month arc for them to get over it. Far as I read, nothing like that happened.

    I can only speak definitively for myself. Morrison ruined the character for me. I stopped buying with issue 131, when the affair began. All X books dropped on the spot. I did read through till the end of Morrison hoping for some retcon out of this that I knew wasn't coming.

    Someone on one board used to post, don't worry, Grant always puts the toys back in the box when he leaves. I'm like, he smashed the toys into pieces. I don't care what he does with them at this point. Since then, I've only read about stuff he's done. Stuff like forming kill squads. That's not something this long time Cyclops fan views as any improvement. To each his own, though.

    15 years is a long time and, anecdotally, I think HOW Jean and Scott were broken up diminished the JOTT fanbase fairly significantly.
    That's an unhealthy, absolutist position to take. Look back on the history of any character. They've all done some horrible, irredeemable things. Even Superman. Cyclops is no exception, not by a long shot. However, I don't think anything he did is totally irredeemable. Same goes for Jean Grey. Any character that has been around long enough is bound to do something terrible. Cyclops and Jean Grey have been around for over 50 years. The only way a character is going to be irredeemable is if you're excessively petty and never want your characters to ever change. That's just not going to happen in the real world. I think even those at Marvel understand that.

    And I agree that it has been a long time since Cyclops and Jean were together, but it's not like they've been completely absent. Since the Grant Morrison run, there's been X-men Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men, both of which had heavy Cyclops/Jean moments. There were video games like X-men Legends that acknowledged the relationship. It was a major part of Ultimate X-men until 2009. It's become a major plot again in the X-men movies, thanks to X-men: Apocalypse. Long time or not, the relationship is still there. It has also manifested in other books like X-men 92.

    Now I'm not saying it's inevitable. Marvel could very well take Cyclops and Jean Grey in a very different direction. However, I think it's just as likely that they could draw them together again. I also think it's possible for Cyclops, Jean Grey, and every character to redeem themselves.
    Join me on the official website for X-men Supreme, home of Marvel Universe 1015. Want a fresh take on X-men? Click below to enter the official home of Marvel at it's most Supreme!


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  12. #15177
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    I'm looking forward to seeing X-Men Prime and I wonder does it show the o5 deciding on Jean as the leader.

  13. #15178
    Senior Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Honestly, Cyclops' actual actions during AvX were not really so obscene as to make him irredeemable, but it was more the way that he was portrayed in the story and the ways that fans reacted to it that really made it difficult to reset the character afterwards. The way he had been portrayed in the years leading up to the event seemed to take a really troubling turn because there was an increasing gap between how the stories clearly wanted us to see him, and how he actually came off. In particular, they seemed to be fixated on pushing this idea that Scott was the ultimate macho alpha male, and making sure to drive home the point that every woman in the vicinity couldn't help but be drawn to his rugged masculinity. Of course, whenever you see a point being made so forcefully, you know that they're compensating for something, and in this case it was clearly this perception that Scott was somehow less of a man because he had been "cucked" by Wolverine, and that it wasn't enough to kill Jean off, or turn Emma into a subservient concubine, or to have Scott slap Logan around every chance he got, they had to make sure every time he was on page that he was the ultimate badass lead dog, not some loser in a gimp suit who can't stop his wife from lusting after another man.

    So by the time the event rolled around, there was a clear separation between the fans who took everything the books presented at face value and idolized their hero as much as the X-Men did, and the fans who were sick of this kind of writing and wanted the story to be about something else for a change. Marvel tried to make everyone happy by using the tried and true trick of having Scott turn evil, but to do it in a "cool" way so that his fans would get to see him be a badass but his detractors would be happy to see him taken down. This of course just made everyone even more angry and turned AvX into one of those stories that everyone remembers for the wrong reasons, especially since the actual story is barely noteworthy and was written in a hasty and sloppy fashion by a group of writers who clearly weren't communicating with each other at all. Also, a lot of the posts on this board about the event got really heated and toxic, with some of the talk now seeming like a preview of some of the "alt right" rhetoric you hear coming out of Trump supporters and the like.

    Admittedly, I'm biased against Cyclops because I just never liked his personality and his design just makes him look goofy and non-threatening, and while I'm not exactly a huge Wolverine fan either I definitely preferred the chemistry that he had with Jean over anything of her and Scott together. But I feel like this whole debacle reeks of editorial fanboyism, trying so desperately to portray a character a certain way rather than simply allowing the story to evolve naturally that ultimately they could no longer keep it up and had to drop him for a while.
    That is what worries me and make me want Jean away from Cyclops: how he turned into a toxic masculinity champion and how the channers took him as some kind of idol.

    It all started on Morrison's run and Cyke started to whine about jean (unfairly) and his insecurity, cheat with a hot woman. BUUUUT look jean kissed Wolverine in a weakness moment (months without sex and phisical contact,conversation with Cyke), Cyke is getting "cucked" by Logan drama, that seems to dictate where his character was going into future.
    Don't even get me started on the pissing contest with captain america

  14. #15179
    HAIL SUMMERS dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    That is what worries me and make me want Jean away from Cyclops: how he turned into a toxic masculinity champion and how the channers took him as some kind of idol.

    It all started on Morrison's run and Cyke started to whine about jean (unfairly) and his insecurity, cheat with a hot woman. BUUUUT look jean kissed Wolverine in a weakness moment (months without sex and phisical contact,conversation with Cyke), Cyke is getting "cucked" by Logan drama, that seems to dictate where his character was going into future.
    Don't even get me started on the pissing contest with captain america
    Well, it was the Captain Hydra who thought that Wolverine was the world's best expert on the Phoenix in the first place.

    And do you remember that it was psychic sex and not actual sex, right ?.
    You know, it's funny that DisMarvel keeps proving that "CYCLOPS WAS RIGHT"; even when he is dead.

  15. #15180
    About damn time. Bart's Avatar
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    New interview with Bunn states that it is Jean who convinces the others to join with Magneto and it shows how much they trust her judgement. Also we can expect 2 or 3 new members added.

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