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  1. #256
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    Hydra Mommy got blown to hell, then he killed Nat and Sharon went to stab him with a stake a la Buffy the Vampire Slayer when she had enough of his bull****.
    Well-Intentioned Extremist? What an odd choice of words.
    I'm talking before that; when he threatened the world at the UN.

    Also, yes, that what I'd call him, because that's exactly what that CWII epliogue laid out for his character.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    True...there has not been massive firings...but two people working in digital sales have been fired,with rumors of more firings to come.This does indicate that The Mouse is not exactly happy...but how unhappy is The Mouse? That remains to be seen.
    And just because something hasn't happened yet...doesn't mean it's not going too.

    Yes but nothing points to that happening.

    If Marvel on a monthly basis generate more money than any other comic book company than Disney have nothing to worry about.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    The story seemed to be going in this way at first because we're cynical, and knew that Marvel lacked the balls to tell this story the way they advertised.

    This was supposed to be the real Steve, and if that's the case this event was supposed to the heroes, and world, seriously reflect on how the world of heroes work.

    Honestly, it's for stories like this that the Ultimate Universe shouldn't have been scraped, or a new sub-label, similar to Marvel Max, should've green lit following Secret Wars. That way writers like Hickman, Ellis, Remender, etc, could come up with a story with a definite ending. That's honestly what always hindered this story; that Cao has to continue years after this.

    To me this would've been a great chance to establish either Peter Parker, or Sam Wilson, as the new moral center of the Marvel Universe, and maybe push characters similar Tony Stark finally into the anti-hero/villain camp, in seeing how fragile the world truly is.
    Good point.

    But this story as it were was filled with the Cosmic Cube making and unmaking stuff.

    The end of the story was pretty much telegraphed from the beginning. Especially with the Cube re-writing history- Stevil was never our Captain America because he was a product of the altered history. For me, he should completely cease to even exist after Kobik corrected everything.

  4. #259
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Having read this now, I am a little disappointed in not seeing the role of Elisa and the Hydra leadership explained, but maybe that will come in Omega. Issue #9 had the Hydra threats dismantled, in the Planet Shield, and the Darkforce both removed. Chthon was removed from Wanda, and Viv restored Vision. There were no Hydra structures left in place by the time Hydra Steve stood alone using the Cosmic Cube. If anything went wrong at this stage, Hydra was over. Well, something did go wrong at this stage, when Bucky grabbed Steves hand in the Cosmic Cube, and came out. Hydra Cap was a little perplexed to see Bucky all right, but the shock of seeing Kobik emerge showed us Hydra Cap couldn't survive if Kobik showed up. He was lost for words. Then, when another older style version of Captain America emerged as well, fear struck Hydra Cap and he knew it was all over.

    I was anticipating a fairly lively debate between the two Captain America's, as to the righteousness of each other. But surprisingly there was very little of that. The two just faced off and started throwing punches, and being identically equal, they were worn down to a state of fatigue, which I would have thought was impossible with Steve, because of his continual rejuvenation by super soldier serum. But the narrative demanded a scramble for the hammer as the last determining factor of who was superior. Hydra Cap got there first, so he thought he had won. But the hammer didn't work. A nightmare. Good Steve lifted the hammer instead, and Hydra Cap felt the cold crash of defeat, and all those dreams of Kobik's little false world fell apart with him, landing heavily face first in the ground.

    From that respect, seeing the triumphant return of the classic Steve Rogers, in his classic costume, was extremely satisfying, as was the first time we saw those spoiler images on cbr yesterday, of Steve bashing Hydra Cap to bits. There seemed to be a sadness about good Cap still. He handed the shield to Sam, and returned the hammer to a surprisingly alive Jane Foster, as though Steve felt he betrayed everyone, so he was just there to symbolise something needed, but he was going to be too depressed to rejoice about the win. I think it's because Steve thought using his evil doppelgänger was a very demeaning thing to do to him.

    The epilogue was simply the country getting back on its feet. Marvel picked one character to demonstrate this in Jason McCalister, and walked him through his repatriation from the evil,concentration camp, and the community coming together to repair the wrong done here.

    We are given the Vanishing Point at last - a reminder of who these heroes are and their mission. Was it needed after this most depressing failure by everyone found helpless before Hydra Cap? I suppose there was a purpose to that. A cathartic "getting back on the horse", instead of slinking away and giving up on the super hero game? It could have been expanded upon a bit more I suppose, but certainly SE took a heavy toll on the super heroes in this Event. They always thought they would win, as the Narrator kept issuing early on. They lost. Badly. And they slicked away with their tails between their legs. That's not going to be healed very easily.
    I hate the fact that there was no discussion between the two Steves, and all of Stevil's valid points were sidestepped because he wasn't worthy, a concept that much more complex than being good.

    Also, what's the point of having kids already disillusioned by the hypocricy, and/or idiocy, of their predecessors go back and hang with the those people, with them having the same issues? In cases like Laura, and Jane, they already know all sides of Logan, and Odinson. While a hero, Logan is willing to lead/run a secret kill squad...how is he a look back a "true heroism"? Jane already knows Odinson is a good, if quite flawed man, as he's still willing to play the hero even without the hammer at this point in time. With Cho, it's a waste of time because Bruse would honestly want to have nothing to do with the world of heroes, and live in peace. Miles has team-ups with Peter!

    It's all pointless.

  5. #260
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Good point.

    But this story as it were was filled with the Cosmic Cube making and unmaking stuff.

    The end of the story was pretty much telegraphed from the beginning. Especially with the Cube re-writing history- Stevil was never our Captain America because he was a product of the altered history. For me, he should completely cease to even exist after Kobik corrected everything.
    I'm sure the only reason Stevil exists is so that Steve has a main villain/rival more interesting than the Red Skull, who's basic as all hell in that he's overtly evil for the sake of it. In the hands of a cerebral writer, or one that knows how to challenge the characters they write, we could get at least a couple great Steve vs Stevil stories. Especially if Stevil gets away from the Hydra moniker, because it's just associated with the idea of evil. Maybe him being unworthy will change his mindset, and approach, to how he wants to better the world.

    I'd like to see someone like an Ivan Brandon, Brubaker, Remender, or Hickman write a Stevil that's more Byronic Hero meets anti-villain, and straight up villain.

    It'd be interesting to see him escspe, and go fix Latveria with this new outlook on life.
    Last edited by TooFlyToFail; 08-31-2017 at 01:30 AM.

  6. #261
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I'm of the totallly opposite opinion regarding the politics of Secret Empire and the current political climate.

    When it was all said and done, Hydra Cap was basically a corrupted, evil version of one of the world's greatest heroes. He thought (in his mind) he was doing the best thing by taking power by force, dividing and killing people in the process. He was a fascist through and through. Extemism is creeping into mainstream politics in the US for the first time in centuries and I don't feel we should shy away from it, anyone that has a voice in the media, in entertainment or anywhere should identify this and call it out.

    A lot of Americans (lately) are afraid of things that aren't really a direct threat to them and find themselves harboring thoughts and adopting views that are extreme just because of "fear". This happened in the 2000s after 9-11 and the politics of fear have been re-introduced except this time it's not foreign terrorists, it's Americans getting scared of their own people. So much so that according to a recent survey 1 out of 10 Americans feel it's ok to hold Nazi or white supremacist views...that suggests that it's possible for around 22 million Americans to hold such extremists views. Heck, a lot of people struggled to condemn white supremacy in the wake of the recent violent protests which is absolutely shocking. Again, extremism is becoming mainstream and people are doing their best to ignore it instead of confront it head on. Even on the left, people are becoming too extreme and many "liberal commentators" bully and harass people that don't agree with them which is flat out wrong.

    My point is, at the end of the day, Secret Empire showed categorically that Hydra Cap was a complete lie and he represents how institutions, built on the best foundations could easily be corrupted right under our noses. Personally, I like the moral clarity the book went for with Good Steve taking out Stevil. Sometimes, fascism or nazism or whatever just needs to be punched in the face.
    Yay! Somebody actually read the book as written instead of making up their own reasons to hate it. It took 101 comments to actually get to the point!

  7. #262
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I felt this issue was kind of anti-climactic and handwaved away too much stuff that i would have liked to seen better explained. But I think it still gave a sort of optimistic, hopeful feeling going forward, despite the damage caused and lives lost.

    But the event as a whole.... I can't really say it any better than this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I'm of the totallly opposite opinion regarding the politics of Secret Empire and the current political climate.

    When it was all said and done, Hydra Cap was basically a corrupted, evil version of one of the world's greatest heroes. He thought (in his mind) he was doing the best thing by taking power by force, dividing and killing people in the process. He was a fascist through and through. Extemism is creeping into mainstream politics in the US for the first time in centuries and I don't feel we should shy away from it, anyone that has a voice in the media, in entertainment or anywhere should identify this and call it out.

    A lot of Americans (lately) are afraid of things that aren't really a direct threat to them and find themselves harboring thoughts and adopting views that are extreme just because of "fear". This happened in the 2000s after 9-11 and the politics of fear have been re-introduced except this time it's not foreign terrorists, it's Americans getting scared of their own people. So much so that according to a recent survey 1 out of 10 Americans feel it's ok to hold Nazi or white supremacist views...that suggests that it's possible for around 22 million Americans to hold such extremists views. Heck, a lot of people struggled to condemn white supremacy in the wake of the recent violent protests which is absolutely shocking. Again, extremism is becoming mainstream and people are doing their best to ignore it instead of confront it head on. Even on the left, people are becoming too extreme and many "liberal commentators" bully and harass people that don't agree with them which is flat out wrong.

    My point is, at the end of the day, Secret Empire showed categorically that Hydra Cap was a complete lie and he represents how institutions, built on the best foundations could easily be corrupted right under our noses. Personally, I like the moral clarity the book went for with Good Steve taking out Stevil. Sometimes, fascism or nazism or whatever just needs to be punched in the face.


    and to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    I'm sure the only reason Stevil exists is so that Steve has a main villain/rival more interesting than the Red Skull, who's basic as all hell in that he's overtly evil for the sake of it. In the hands of a cerebral writer, or one that knows how to challenge the characters they write, we could get at least a couple great Steve vs Stevil stories. Especially if Stevil gets away from the Hydra moniker, because it's just associated with the idea of evil. Maybe him being unworthy will change his mindset, and approach, to how he wants to better the world.

    I'd like to see someone like an Ivan Brandon, Brubaker, Remender, or Hickman write a Stevil that's more Byronic Hero meets anti-villain, and straight up villain.

    It'd be interesting to see him escspe, and go fix Latveria with this new outlook on life.
    I think that could be fun, but if they do use him as a villain, they need to give him a scar or something so we can tell them apart.
    Last edited by Raye; 08-31-2017 at 02:04 AM.

  8. #263
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Kudos to Spencer and everyone involved. They told the story they set out to tell and it was, to my mind, arguably the best event Marvel's ever done.

    It's certainly among the cream of the crop, alongside Infinity Gauntlet, Secret Invasion, and Hickman's Secret Wars.
    I generally agree, excepting the fact that it would take a lot to beat Secret Wars for me. It is certainly interesting that they are cut from similar cloth. Both were years in the build-up, both were in a way reluctant. Secret Wars was Hickman adding his thoughts to the writers room and realising from the reaction that he was committed. Secret Empire was a slow build story that grew to the point that Spencer had to ask if it could be an event. There is a sense that both events arose out of an organic plan that Marvel and the various writers could get behind.

    Both also suffer in the same manner. Secret Wars was such a huge shake-up it was challenging to the ongoing line. Secret Empire looks like it was similarly challenging, in that we are still not totally clear how the repercussions will play. I guess this is the natural fall-out from such high concept storytelling.

  9. #264
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Well, terrible things do happen all the time and there's no magic solution to it.

    If everything was hand waved away at the end of SE, I guarantee that the #1 complaint from all the people now complaining because everything wasn't restored would be "What's the point? Nothing mattered!"
    You don't need to guarantee anything. All we need to do is look back at the complaints in discussions about the early issues. The complaints were in full swing that this was yet another event that would have a reset and nothing would matter. Ironically it was compared to Secret Wars, where things were not reset back to their starting conditions and things did matter. But as soon as the writers and editors explained patiently that this wasn't heading for a full reset they complained about "irreparable damage" which I suspect is just rant-code for consequential outcomes.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    I'm sure the only reason Stevil exists is so that Steve has a main villain/rival more interesting than the Red Skull, who's basic as all hell in that he's overtly evil for the sake of it. In the hands of a cerebral writer, or one that knows how to challenge the characters they write, we could get at least a couple great Steve vs Stevil stories. Especially if Stevil gets away from the Hydra moniker, because it's just associated with the idea of evil. Maybe him being unworthy will change his mindset, and approach, to how he wants to better the world.

    I'd like to see someone like an Ivan Brandon, Brubaker, Remender, or Hickman write a Stevil that's more Byronic Hero meets anti-villain, and straight up villain.

    It'd be interesting to see him escspe, and go fix Latveria with this new outlook on life.
    I agree.

    Stevil could make a very interesting villain going forward.

  11. #266
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Aside from the general confusion this thread seems to have about resets and exactly what Kobik did, (reverse Hydra Cap's sweeping changes and correct the timeline shenanigans around the alternative WW2 and Steve's alternative history) there is a glaring part of this story that nobody seems to be addressing.

    Who currently holds the mantle of Captain America? If you only read this book, and ignore solicits, you would be forgiven for reading this as a doubling down on Sam Wilson. It is he who is shown in the heroic pose with the other heroes, it is he that was the rallying point for these events, and it is his action figure that the kids are squabbling over.

  12. #267
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Aside from the general confusion this thread seems to have about resets and exactly what Kobik did, (reverse Hydra Cap's sweeping changes and correct the timeline shenanigans around the alternative WW2 and Steve's alternative history) there is a glaring part of this story that nobody seems to be addressing.

    Who currently holds the mantle of Captain America? If you only read this book, and ignore solicits, you would be forgiven for reading this as a doubling down on Sam Wilson. It is he who is shown in the heroic pose with the other heroes, it is he that was the rallying point for these events, and it is his action figure that the kids are squabbling over.
    Yet, they have him quit. Good job, Marvel.

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Aside from the general confusion this thread seems to have about resets and exactly what Kobik did, (reverse Hydra Cap's sweeping changes and correct the timeline shenanigans around the alternative WW2 and Steve's alternative history) there is a glaring part of this story that nobody seems to be addressing.

    Who currently holds the mantle of Captain America? If you only read this book, and ignore solicits, you would be forgiven for reading this as a doubling down on Sam Wilson. It is he who is shown in the heroic pose with the other heroes, it is he that was the rallying point for these events, and it is his action figure that the kids are squabbling over.
    I loved that SE ends with an reaffirmation of Sam's Cap. This has been so much about Sam's story and Sam's tenure as Cap - not just in SE itself but in Sam Wilson: Captain America - that it's touching to see it end with Sam's often controversial time as Cap being embraced. No matter what happens going forward for Sam, he was Cap when the country needed him to be and he came through beautifully. And that can never be taken away.

    For all the emotional moments in #10, seeing that last panel of a child holding a Sam Wilson Cap action figure was one that really got me. What a note to end on.

    As for who holds the mantle now - at the end of SE #10, it's Sam. But clearly he's going to give it back to Steve. Probably in the Omega issue.

    One reason I'm glad that HydraCap was not the real Cap is that I really couldn't see Sam giving up being Cap unless it was clear that HydraCap was another person altogether.

    If it was the same guy who just found his conscience again, I still think there wouldn't be enough trust there to say "Ok, he's better now!" There'd be too much wariness.

    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Yet, they have him quit. Good job, Marvel.
    I loved Sam as Cap but I think it's time for Steve to return. No one is ever going to permanently hold that shield besides Steve Rogers. Every replacement is just keeping the position warm until Steve comes back. But they gave Sam an amazing story to shine in. Sam's solo book and SE have elevated him from being - arguably - Marvel's most famous sidekick to being an A-list hero. It'll be interesting to see how he operates as Falcon in the wake of his time as Cap.

  14. #269
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Yet, they have him quit. Good job, Marvel.
    Glad you also think so. Pretty great all round I think we can all agree!

    Seriously though, we may not be at the end of this whole thing. We are going by stories we haven't read yet, which is why I said 'and ignore solicits'. If we purely went by solicits and hearsay last week, we would believe that Bearded Steve was always in the same vanishing point as the characters in Generations. But Steve was always in the cube, which was what some of us said all along, and The Vanishing Point has not been fully explained yet. It is very easy to get the wrong end of the stick from solicits and interviews, which is why I usually read interviews after the fact and only pay attention to the broad brushstrokes of the solicits.

    What we do know is the nation watched a classic incarnation of Cap beat up Hydra-Cap and pick up Mjolnir, which wasn't something Hydra-Cap could do when push came to shove. So the public now have their rallying point. The heroes already had their rallying point as Sam-Cap. Now we await the actual ramifications in the stories going forward.

  15. #270
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    I hate the fact that there was no discussion between the two Steves, and all of Stevil's valid points were sidestepped because he wasn't worthy, a concept that much more complex than being good.

    Also, what's the point of having kids already disillusioned by the hypocricy, and/or idiocy, of their predecessors go back and hang with the those people, with them having the same issues? In cases like Laura, and Jane, they already know all sides of Logan, and Odinson. While a hero, Logan is willing to lead/run a secret kill squad...how is he a look back a "true heroism"? Jane already knows Odinson is a good, if quite flawed man, as he's still willing to play the hero even without the hammer at this point in time. With Cho, it's a waste of time because Bruse would honestly want to have nothing to do with the world of heroes, and live in peace. Miles has team-ups with Peter!

    It's all pointless.
    I too, was looking forward to an exchange of views between Steve and Stevil, and found that a little disappointing. If we could get Steve visiting Stevils cell, like Tony did after CWI, that discussion might happen.

    As to the younger kids getting nothing from the classics in "Generations", post-SE everyone needed a shot in the arm, after the poor treatment of the classic heroes of late. The classics themselves will need some shoreing up, and the young ones will need to regain confidence in the classics if the classics are going to be useful to the legacy characters. So something like a re-affirmation that the classics have a wealth of experience the young ones can gain from, is a worthwhile exercise. We don't yet know what that entails until "Legacy" goes into full swing, but I'm hoping that means some returns of the classic characters to a fuller status as respected heroes again.

    So much has still been left unsaid:

    Ultron/Pym's castle in the North full of Ultron Swarm
    Atlantis
    New Tian
    New Attilan
    Who wields the shield
    Bucky' role
    The Hydra Inner circle
    Hawkeye
    The Planet shield - will it stay?


    Loved Ant-Mans use of the MCU disc that kept Bucky shrinking down and down. Need to know how Viv and Vision go forward, unless Kobik changed that from happening? Elisa Sinclair needs explaining instead on her nihilistic exit. I'd like to know the reason for the absence of characters in that awesome double pager of the Earths Mightiest Heroes. Was OML returned to his alternative universe? Bucky back to the Wall? Does Hawkeye return to Occupy Avengers? Sam Wilsons new mission?
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-31-2017 at 04:25 AM.

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