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  1. #76
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    While I would keep the majority of the DC Universe the same, if I was in charge of the New Fifty Two, and this might be controversial, but I would remove Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, and The Freedom Fighters from continuity, because unlike (to a certain extent at least), the Charlton characters (Only Blue Beetle and The Question, really.), who I think, despite being originally published by a different company, have successfully integrated into the DCU, the Fawcett and Quality comics characters have not.
    I don't know Black Adam has been one of the best characters I think.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Hard reboot. No "crisis" no "hero does this thing and it changes stuff". Just a hard, no connection to anything that came before, reboot. Every major hero would get an "origin" book. Superman first, obviously. I'd write that one since that's a dream project. Then Batman. Keep Year One but everything after that is up for grabs. Wonder Woman. Green Lantern. Flash. Green Arrow. etc. Keep the Justice Society as part of DC history. They've been operating off and on for decades with Dr. Fate using his magic to keep them at around 50. Batman starts off with him saving Dick Grayson and he becomes Robin. Superman books are, essentially, year one. His first full year in Metropolis and the world getting used to him. Ditto the others. Justice League doesn't come out until later. Martian Manhunter is introduced then. Teen Titans will wait at least a year for the sidekicks to get established. And even then it's the originals. Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash, Aqualad, Wonder Girl. Maybe the others can be added on later. Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, etc.

    The only real differences I'd make might be minor. Give Robin goggles like in DKR or the Lego movie. Maybe Lois finds out Clark's secret early but doesn't tell him. Introduce "wave 2" characters the first year. Batgirl, Supergirl, Vixen, the other Lanterns, Maybe even Suicide Squad. I'm not a huge Harley Quinn fan but she'd be introduced as a med student interning at Arkham and meets the Joker. Establish that the multiverse is infinite early on. That whatever you consider to be your "version" is still out there somewhere. If you can imagine it, it exists in some form. Make it be like a hypertime situation. We even get to see some of them early on. Including a "classic" universe that looks a lot like what existed before. To ease people's minds, we show things like the Kingdom Come universe, the Batman Beyond universe, even pre-Crisis Earth's 1 & 2 and post Crisis universe. So no one feels left out.

    Explore new story ideas. Get Superman out of space and alien-of-the-month scenarios and make him take on more down to Earth things like murders and science experiments gone wrong. Make Toyman an assassin for hire who uses remote control toys to blow up his targets. Make the Prankster like his Joker. Make Terra Man an anti-alien Xenophobe who uses stolen experimental weapons to kill aliens living on Earth. And he has a movement behind him. Batman would take on vigilantes more violent than he is. Some Punisher like. Some inspired by him. Give Two Face multiple personality disorder. Make Poison Ivy an eco-terrorist. Most of his enemies would have a motivation for what they do. Joker would be more like the Heath Ledger version. Chaos for the sake of chaos.

    Wonder Woman would spend most of her book trying to recover magical items stolen from Paradise Island before they end up in the wrong hands. Stopping Ares from inciting war on Earth. Flash would be able to move freely between time and other universes. But he doesn't fully understand the limits of his powers so he might accidentally run too far into the future long after humans are gone and is stranded there for a few issues. The Legion would be inspired by Superman but he wouldn't necessarily be a member. Conner might though! Green Lantern would mostly be a space book. Stopping alien pirates and slave rings on other worlds. Green Arrow would be "grim and gritty". Realistic with minimal super-powers. He'd be the Punisher or Daredevil of the DCU. Sometimes even killing. Star City would be a cesspool. Worse than Gotham. The most crime ridden area would be called "The Glades" because the area is so run down, nature has actually started to reclaim it. Trees growing through buildings, that sort of thing. Black Canary would be his sidekick/fiance.

    Finally, I'd make Adventure comics an anthology book for characters who don't have their own ongoing. Three stories each issue featuring different characters. I'd mostly leave Vertigo alone. Keep them separate from the rest of the DCU. Maybe even let it be it's own universe. As a meta reference maybe have DC comics show up in the background periodically.
    Last edited by superduperman; 09-15-2017 at 07:20 PM.
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  3. #78
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    I don't know Black Adam has been one of the best characters I think.
    Okay Black Adam would still be part of my version of DC continuity, but I would have him be sort of like the mainstream DCU counterpart to Captain Marvel, sort of like how Captain Marvel was portrayed to be the Earth 4 counterpart to Superman in Final Crisis. Plus Black Adam in my humble opinion frankly doesn't work as a Captain Marvel antagonist, way too dark.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Really? I knew a lot of fans didn't like the fact that Morrison re-retconed Jason Todd to be a ginger, but I sort of assumed his take on the character was generally well received; personally it's my favorite take on Jason to date.
    The red hair and the goofy costume alone are already bad enough. And appart from this I don't see much that he really brought new to the character.

    I to me it seems the only ones who like Morrisons Jason, are people who are not really fans of Jason in the first place. Within Jasons fanbase not many people like that version, and most prefer him as Anti-Hero opposed to villain. And imo the whole concept of a viallian that knows the identity of the family and does manly go up against them (and repeatedly fails) isn't working on the long run.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    1. “The New 52” wouldn't refer to 52 titles; it would refer to the rebooting of “the 52” — that is, the Multiverse introduced in the epinymous weekly series. There wouldn't be 52 titles, and the titles would be distributed among multiple Earths.

    2. I would launch it with a New 52 one-shot that establishes the new state of affairs. The viewpoint character would be Booster Gold. The new state of affairs would be:

    ★ Earth 0 is missing. Booster is the “last survivor”, in that he is the only hero from Earth 0 who is still around: if not for Booster, no one would even know that there was an Earth 0; and no one, including Booster, knows what happened to it.
    ★ Earth 1 is home to a freshly rebooted Justice League, similar in concept to the Earth One graphic novels but differing in execution. Eight titles: Justice League, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. This Earth is also home to the teams such as the Metal Men, the Doom Patrol, and the Legion of Superheroes.
    ★ Earth 2 is home to a modified version of the Justice Society, roughly a decade older than Earth-1's League and inhabiting a Dieselpunk world. This Earth doesn't just feature the Justice Society; it includes the full spectrum of Golden Age heroes, including Fawcett and Quality heroes. Titles include: Action Comics (featuring The Superman family: Lois, Clark, and Kara), Detective Comics (featuring Bruce, Selina, Helena, and Dick), All-Star Comics (featuring the Justice Society). Other titles, if any, follow this naming convention: titles from the Golden Age with names that didn't reference specific heroes.
    ★ Earth 3 is not a “universe of evil”, and it does not feature the Crime Syndicate: that's handled by the antimatter counterpart to Earth One (call it “Earth Minus One” if you wish). Instead, Earth Three is “the next generation” — a world where the original Justice League is mostly retired, missing, and/or dead, and their proteges are taking over. In many ways, it's the closest thing to a continuation of the pre-N52 DCU in the New 52: this is where the post-New52 Batman Inc and Green Lantern Corps take place, with the caveat that Bruce and Hal late no longer Batman and Green Lantern, respectively. This Earth also includes the Justice League International, the Birds of Prey, the Secret Six, and other titles derived from the pre-N52 DCU that don't fit the new Earth One, and can be adjusted to fit on a world where the original JLAers are no longer active.
    ★ Earth 4 features the Charlton heroes. Build off of Morrison's Pax America, but time down the Watchmen references a bit. (In particular, it's Captain Atom, with silver skin and something closer to his original look, not Captain Adam.) If I can retain/reacquire the rights to the Archie and Tower Comics heroes, this Earth will be their home as well.
    ★ Earth 5 features Captain Marvel, and draws heavily on Morrison's Thunderworld.

    These would be the main Earths featured. I'd make a point to reinstate the annual crossovers, with each crossover advancing the mystery of the MIA Earth as well as forging ties between the participating Earths.

    Some specifics: Earth-1's Superman would resemble what we got in the actual New 52. Earth-2's Superman would, ironically, more closely resemble the pre-N52 Superman: in his mid-30s and married to Lois. Earth-3's Superman would be absent; I haven't decided whether he's dead, retired, or missing. But his role as Metropolis's champion is being filled by the Alpha Centurion, while his legacy as Earth's defender is shared by several heroes including Steel, Superboy (Kon-El), and Supergirl (Linda Danvers).

    Earth 1's Batman draws inspiration from Batman Year One, the Long Halloween, and Dark Victory; but his story picks up shortly after Dark Victory. Earth-2's Bruce Wayne is old enough to have a grown daughter (Helena), and is mostly retired but not yet dead. Earth-3's Bruce is younger than Earth-2's Bruce; after his encounter with Darkseid and his trip through time, he retired from active crimefighting, leaving the cowl to Dick and instead focusing on running Batman Inc.

    Earth-1's Flash is Barry Allen. Earth-2's Flash is Jay Garrick. Earth-3's Flash is Wally West.

    Earth-1's Green Lantern is Hal Jordan. Earth-2's Green Lantern is Alan Scott. Earth-3's Green Lanterns are John Stewart, Guy Gardner, and Kyle Rayner; and they're neck-deep in the War of Light.

    More thoughts as they come to me.
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  6. #81
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Really? I knew a lot of fans didn't like the fact that Morrison re-retconed Jason Todd to be a ginger, but I sort of assumed his take on the character was generally well received; personally it's my favorite take on Jason to date.
    Well, he originally was ginger until he was retconned to not being ginger.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    What are the trade and digital sales like though?

    Floppies might be the main source of revenue but they're not the only one anymore, and those other formats are gaining steady ground. For instance, Marvel keeps Ms. Marvel and Moon Girl around because they sell really, really well in those other formats, even though their floppy sales aren't very impressive.
    If you can trust these numbers here digital sales aren't that important in comparison to floppies and trades, and at least if you can go by the comixology best seller list, non of these titles is doing that great in digital either. About the only titles that have way better performance in digital that in floppies are the "digital first" series.
    Trade sales could be a factor, but I'm kind of sceptical that these are much higher than the floppy sales. I mean most of the books are selling below 10K issues, the sales in trades would really have to be much higher to make up for that.

  8. #83
    Mad scientist Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Hard reboot. No "crisis" no "hero does this thing and it changes stuff". Just a hard, no connection to anything that came before, reboot. Every major hero would get an "origin" book. Superman first, obviously. I'd write that one since that's a dream project. Then Batman. Keep Year One but everything after that is up for grabs. Wonder Woman. Green Lantern. Flash. Green Arrow. etc. Keep the Justice Society as part of DC history. They've been operating off and on for decades with Dr. Fate using his magic to keep them at around 50. Batman starts off with him saving Dick Grayson and he becomes Robin. Superman books are, essentially, year one. His first full year in Metropolis and the world getting used to him. Ditto the others. Justice League doesn't come out until later. Martian Manhunter is introduced then. Teen Titans will wait at least a year for the sidekicks to get established. And even then it's the originals. Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash, Aqualad, Wonder Girl. Maybe the others can be added on later. Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, etc.

    The only real differences I'd make might be minor. Give Robin goggles like in DKR or the Lego movie. Maybe Lois finds out Clark's secret early but doesn't tell him. Introduce "wave 2" characters the first year. Batgirl, Supergirl, Vixen, the other Lanterns, Maybe even Suicide Squad. I'm not a huge Harley Quinn fan but she'd be introduced as a med student interning at Arkham and meets the Joker. Establish that the multiverse is infinite early on. That whatever you consider to be your "version" is still out there somewhere. If you can imagine it, it exists in some form. Make it be like a hypertime situation. We even get to see some of them early on. Including a "classic" universe that looks a lot like what existed before. To ease people's minds, we show things like the Kingdom Come universe, the Batman Beyond universe, even pre-Crisis Earth's 1 & 2 and post Crisis universe. So no one feels left out.
    I sounds great but it doesn't really work economically.
    You just don't have enough book at the start for your company to survive on.
    You'd pretty much would have to do it similar to Marvel's Ultimate Universe at first, where the two universes co-exist.

    And then start closing down the old universe when the New 52 is up to speed.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Well, he originally was ginger until he was retconned to not being ginger.
    That was a completely different version of the character.

    I think most fans would also be not happy Alfred was for example changed back to this incarnation.


  10. #85
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I sounds great but it doesn't really work economically.
    You just don't have enough book at the start for your company to survive on.
    You'd pretty much would have to do it similar to Marvel's Ultimate Universe at first, where the two universes co-exist.

    And then start closing down the old universe when the New 52 is up to speed.
    This is the main reason I'm sorry the new Earth One books never took off. I think DC needs a "new" universe as a jumping on point or new readers. And Earth One was just that. To some degree, I think the New 52 hurt it. You have a 20 year old Superman and the next year you get one in the in mainstream universe too? I still think that Earth One has a lot of potential and if DC isn't doing anything with it, I'd love to take over Earth One Superman!
    Listen, lady! I am thirteen years old and driving a Bat-hog through the Amazon on a Tuesday morning! I am ALREADY winning!

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  11. #86
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    My version of the New Fifty Two Part Four

    31. Swamp Thing ( 7 issue miniseries) (Rated M)
    Retells the origin of Alec Holland, Swamp Thing, in a more horror tinged and realistic manner, because in retrospect, Len Wein's run on Swamp Thing wasn't actually very horror related for the most part, in many issues the tone was predominantly science fiction and fantasy, not horror. Written by Stephen King with Art by Eddie Campbell.

    32. The Multiversity. (Rated T)
    Starring Nix Uotan explores various parts of the multiverse - - and beyond. Each storyline will be drawn by a different artist, to showcase the variety of the 52 Earths. Written by Grant Morrison and Drawn by a multitude of different people.

    33. Supergirl (Rated T)
    I care nothing about this character, so I'm not even going to write a synopsis, but she is very popular, so she should have a title in the New Fifty Two Reboot. Written and Drawn by Bryan Lee O'Malley.


    34. Zatanna (Rated T+)
    Okay, so this is a slightly weird pitch for a Zatanna series, and it's an idea for a Zatanna series I have mentioned multiple times on this forum. Anyway, instead of this Zatanna series being set in the present time, this Zatanna series will be a '80s period piece set in the Vertigo corner of the DC Universe. Written by Mike Carey with Art by Stuart Immonen. Covers by Bill Sienkiewicz.

    35. Constantine (Rated M)
    Similar to the controversial New 52 Constantine series, this series starring the famous chain smoking magician will replace Vertigo's long running Hellblazer as the premier title featuring the exploits of John Constantine. Unlike the New 52 Constantine series however, this Constantine series will actually take place in the continuity of the Vertigo Hellblazer title, but will document John Constantine's early life. One of the most interesting aspects of the Vertigo Hellblazer series for me was when they had an issue detailing John's past, (issue 84 comes to mind.). Written by Pat Mills with art by Duncan Fegredo. Covers by Dave Mckean

    36. Sensation Comics: Troia (Rated T)
    Solo series starring Donna Troy. Written by Gail Simone with Art by Yanick Paquette.

    37. The Spectre (Rated M)
    Because I think that Jim Corrigan's story beautifully ended with John Ostrander's definitive run on the character, this Spectre series won't feature Corrigan as the Spectre but rather a new Spectre from the Middle Ages. Since Manga sells much more than traditional American comics, I would like a few titles in my New Fifty Two to have a more Manga-ish tone than the typical comic book, and I would like someone who works in Manga to write and draw this series. I suspect that most Manga readers don't go to comic book stores, so maybe The Spectre will simultaneously be published in a Japanese manga anthology like Shonen Jump, this will also be a way to introduce Manga readers to the larger DC Universe. Written and Drawn by Junji Ito.

    38. Deadman (Rated M)
    This ideally would be written by Scott Snyder. While I find Scott Snyder's constant retcon's of pre-existing characters past highly obnoxious, I think that a Scott Snyder 'from the ground up' reinvention of Deadman could be really interesting.Written by Scott Snyder with Art by Jae Lee

    39. Arsenal (6 issue miniseries) (Rated T+)
    Green Arrow's former protege, Roy Harper, has made a deal with Levithan, in exchange for the resurrection of his daughter Lian Harper, via the Lazarus Pits, will have to travel back in time to kill Oliver Queen. Written by Ed Brubaker with Art by David Finch

    40. The Bulleteer. (Rated M)
    This is an ongoing series centering around Grant Morrison's reinvention of Bullet Girl in Seven Soldiers. I thought the original Morrison penned miniseries was mediocre, but I loved it's more grittier elements. (Underage Superhero porn sites, Etc.) I found it remarkable that DC let the miniseries get published. Garth Ennis would be a perfect pick for a Bulleteer series, he could bring some of the same magic he attributed to the "The Boys" series he wrote for Dynamite for a few years. Written by Garth Ennis with Art by Steve Dillon.
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 10-06-2017 at 10:31 PM.

  12. #87
    Incredible Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Okay Black Adam would still be part of my version of DC continuity, but I would have him be sort of like the mainstream DCU counterpart to Captain Marvel, sort of like how Captain Marvel was portrayed to be the Earth 4 counterpart to Superman in Final Crisis. Plus Black Adam in my humble opinion frankly doesn't work as a Captain Marvel antagonist, way too dark.
    That would be neat. The darkness in Black Adam is more like the gory stuff they did, which you can either get behind or not. I do think there is a complexity to Black Adam that isn't in Cap but it makes sense since Adam is an adult and Billy is still a kid. There's fun (or serious) potential for something there.

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Another idea would be to start off with an event...

    DC Legends

    DC Legends #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Alan Davis
    Aquaman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern Hal Jordan, Superman, Wonder Woman, Shazam (Captain Marvel), Martian Manhunter, Atom, Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Zatanna, Cyborg, Vixen, Black Lightning, Adam Strange, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Firestorm, Dr. Light, Plastic Man, Fire, Ice, Nightwing, Starfire, Animal-Man, Power Girl, Huntress, Batwoman, Dr. Fate, Blue Devil, Creeper, Supergirl, Batgirl, Robin, Superboy, Mister Miracle, Starman, Steel, Hawk & Dove.

    DC Legends: Batman #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Mikel Janin

    DC Legends: Superman #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by John Cassaday

    DC Legends: Wonder Woman #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Adam Hughes

    DC Legends: Aquaman #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Mike McKone

    DC Legends: Flash #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Ivan Reis

    DC Legends: Green Lantern Corps #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Dan Jurgens

    DC Legends: Hawkman #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Ryan Sook

    DC Legends: Shazam! #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Evan Shaner

    DC Legends: Cyborg #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Steve Rude

    DC Legends: Green Arrow #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Rags Morales

    DC Legends: Firestorm #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Chris Batista

    DC Legends: Zatanna #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Terry Dodson

    DC Legends: Superfriends #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Aaron Lopresti
    Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, Guy Gardner, J'onn J'onzz, Power Girl, Mister Miracle and Blue Devil

    DC Legends: Batwoman #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Yanick Paquette

    DC Legends: Nightwing #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Yildiray Cinar

    DC Legends: Atom #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Barry Kitson

    DC Legends: Vixen #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Billy Tan

    DC Legends: JLA #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Joe Bennett

    DC Legends #1 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Alan Davis

    DC Legends: Titans #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Mark Bagley

    DC Legends: JSA #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Dave Gibbons

    DC Legends: Legion of Super-Heroes #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Stuart Immonen

    DC Legends: Young Justice #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Gianluca Gugliotta

    DC Legends: Supergirl #0 - written by Jeff Parker, drawn by Ron Lim
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  14. #89
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    If you can trust these numbers here digital sales aren't that important in comparison to floppies and trades, and at least if you can go by the comixology best seller list, non of these titles is doing that great in digital either. About the only titles that have way better performance in digital that in floppies are the "digital first" series.
    Trade sales could be a factor, but I'm kind of sceptical that these are much higher than the floppy sales. I mean most of the books are selling below 10K issues, the sales in trades would really have to be much higher to make up for that.
    Thanks for the link.

    Regarding trades, I gotta say the new numbers (new to me anyway) are interesting. I wonder what the production cost difference is between trades and floppies?
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  15. #90
    Incredible Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    If was head of constructing the New Fifty Two, in a Dan Didio/Geoff Johns position or whatever, I would not insert Vertigo and Wildstorm characters into the main DC universe like they so infamously did, but what I would do would be to publish every Vertigo and Wildstorm under the main DC label. I suspect that imprints are a burden when it comes to sales, and titles under Vertigo, Wildstorm, Young Animal imprints, for example, would sell a little bit better if they were DC titles.

    For example:
    Vertigo Swamp Thing Series 3 issue #1: 25,063

    Vertigo Swamp Thing Series 4 issue #1: 33,382

    DC New Fifty Two Swamp Thing issue #1: 54,757

    The DC iteration of the first issue of Swamp Thing clearly sells the best. Obviously, this isn't solid evidence to reinforce what I'm theorizing, but it's just a theory, a Film The--
    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    The New 52 book was part of a massive event though, and it was returnable.

    Hardly a fair comparison.
    You're right, it's a pretty poor theory on my part, but despite the fact that New Fifty Two Swamp Thing was part of a large company - wide event, there was a whopping 52 titles that were a part of that event and Swamp Thing sold better than Supergirl, Catwoman, Superboy, Legion of Superheroes, Birds of Prey, and Suicide Squad all characters and teams that are far more well known by the general comic reading public than Swamp Thing. New Fifty Two Swamp Thing had the hurdle of being a fantasy-action-horror comic rather than a superhero comic.
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 10-06-2017 at 12:43 PM.

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