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  1. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    And yet it's the so-called free market that lead Marvel to push diversity in the first place. They have to keep growing in order to make a profit and that means having to reach outside of their traditional audience. Somehow every time it happens it turns into arguments about agendas and political posturing and yet keeping on the path of catering to the 'core' audience only results in dimishing returns hence all the crossovers and gimmick covers over the years.
    This.

    Jane Thor has been more successful than Odinson's last run over a longer period. I'm pretty sure Marvel are in a bend on how to bring back Odinson when there's a distinct possibility that it will sell less than it is now.

    Captain America and Hulk were selling poorly (relative to their popularity) and it was when Bendis took over Iron man that the book rose in sales. All these characters will come back and I fully expect them to experience a sales bump and then inevitably collapse to where they were before. Despite people jumping up and down about how great DC Rebirth is, sales on a lot of books have started to fall back to their previous levels, why? Because there are no mythical mass of disenfranchised fans waiting to come back.

    This will inevitably lead to more relaunches in the years to come and more changes to these characters since the "core fans" have apparently moved to other hobbies in large numbers.

  2. #587
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    But neither is, in any way, a barometer of "quality."

    The awards for Art have this value and this only– they show that for that time, in that place, you pleased enough of the people who vote on such things to be given an award. The award, or even being nominated for it, can elevate your profile, thereby increasing sales for a time but, in itself? No value whatsoever. Zero.
    So, what do you think are the standards to judge work to be quality, then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    I can just as easily argue the opposite, that Marvel's deliberate decision to alienate their core fans has lead to the dramatic collapse in sales. You see in their greed Marvel wanted to pursue that elusive Tumblr dollar, even if that meant sacrificing their most iconic heroes in order to do so. Of course, what Marvel is only now just realising is that Tumblr is all bark and no bite, they never actually purchase the new politicized comics they claim to desire so much. It's such a pity Marvel had to destroy their reputation as a company in order to reach this apifany.
    As I understand it, the comic book industry never really recovered from the collapse in the '90s, a good long time before the SJW conspiracy theorists were theorizing. So, I don't see how the SJW conspiracy theory can explain everything, since the sales problem pre-existed the alleged cause. On top of that, given that most SJW conspiracy theories essentially boil down to confirmation bias and proof by assertion, it's not a very solid model in the first place.

    Also at this point, with the comic book movie industry and cartoons being such big deals (which, dollars to doughnuts, are taking a bigger bite out of floppy sales then disgruntled SJW conspiracy theorists are), it's a good bet that many "core fans" have never picked up a comic in their life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's debatable that Marvel is still the industry when grossly over inflate their sales figures with overshipping and lots of extra varient covers. Regardless, the real problem is that it doesn't matter if Marvel is still the leader when sales have now collapsed so far as to make the industry almost unprofitable, in this new era there are no winners. Perhaps the collapse was going to happen anyway, thanks to things like Netflix and the rising popularity of Manga. Even so it's safe to say that Marvel's high risk strategy of replacing so many iconic heroes in quick succession only served to accelerate the severity of the collapse.
    Given that a lot of the replacements are popular characters with readers and created new ones, that's highly unlikely. Prices are a more likely reason, IMHO.

  3. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    Semi-off topic but that's not how you deal with conflict or becoming progressive. You don't ignore it, you push it. The Civil War, the civil rights movement, etc... were not passive. Lots of fighting, protesting and arguing. Changing things is never easy.

    As for people moving on if they can't find what their looking for in the medium, sure. That doesn't mean Marvel should support viewpoints like racism, sexism or homophobia.
    Well said.

    This pretty much sums it all up.

  4. #589
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    So, what do you think are the standards to judge work to be quality, then?
    I don't read fiction or engage ANY Art to "judge its quality." I engage to be moved by the creator's vision. If I am, I'm happy. If not, I move on. "Judging" isn't a component of my comic book reading. Or, really, any of my book reading.
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  5. #590
    Mighty Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiterabbit View Post
    This isn't about fighting for social imbalances or rights -- these are comic books. You're not going to convince consumers who don't want your product to like it because it's progressive or you tell them it's good. You know how many failed experiments I've seen happen on our menu? About 22.
    Comic books reflect real life to a certain extent. And look at my avatar, books that don't fight for social imbalances or rights? That's the X-Men's entire premise... besides feeling like an outsider. And it's a concept that has been wildly popular for them.

    Also Captain America fighting Hitler in the 40s. Totally political.

    Literature has been used to advance social commentary, not the first or the last time. Comic books, less so, but it had it's time I'd argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v
    This. Really and only this. The rest of this thread is the same old argument repeated with the same old players ad nauseam.
    Fortunately... capitalism will win out over every other ideology in this. All the attacks and psedo intellectual posturing are irrelavant to business. I can hardly wait. Laterz.
    I don't think ideology has anything to do with the market's sales. It's business practices, cost and the physical medium in decline in general.

  6. #591
    Fantastic Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    As I understand it, the comic book industry never really recovered from the collapse in the '90s, a good long time before the SJW conspiracy theorists were theorizing. So, I don't see how the SJW conspiracy theory can explain everything, since the sales problem pre-existed the alleged cause. On top of that, given that most SJW conspiracy theories essentially boil down to confirmation bias and proof by assertion, it's not a very solid model in the first place.

    Also at this point, with the comic book movie industry and cartoons being such big deals (which, dollars to doughnuts, are taking a bigger bite out of floppy sales then disgruntled SJW conspiracy theorists are), it's a good bet that many "core fans" have never picked up a comic in their life.



    Given that a lot of the replacements are popular characters with readers and created new ones, that's highly unlikely. Prices are a more likely reason, IMHO.
    It's true that the comic industry has never been able to reach the heights it did in the early 90s, before the collapse. Even so, the industry has managed to survive for decades beyond that point and even release some great new storylines along the way. It's only in the last 18 months or so that Marvel has entered into a death spiral and seems to be taking the rest of the industry with it.

    It's no coincidence that this happened at the same time as the largest uptake in replacing iconic heroes with new stand-ins. If anything the loss of Tony Stark was probably the catalyst for the steepest decline. Iron Man is Marvel's flagship hero, not Spider-Man and certainly not Captain Marvel. I think that fans were willing to put-up with a lot of crap from Marvel so long as they still got to see Tony Stark leading the charge. This makes Riri Williams the veritable straw that broke the camel’s back.

  7. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's true that the comic industry has never been able to reach the heights it did in the early 90s, before the collapse. Even so, the industry has managed to survive for decades beyond that point and even release some great new storylines along the way. It's only in the last 18 months or so that Marvel has entered into a death spiral and seems to be taking the rest of the industry with it.

    It's no coincidence that this happened at the same time as the largest uptake in replacing iconic heroes with new stand-ins. If anything the loss of Tony Stark was probably the catalyst for the steepest decline. Iron Man is Marvel's flagship hero, not Spider-Man and certainly not Captain Marvel. I think that fans were willing to put-up with a lot of crap from Marvel so long as they still got to see Tony Stark leading the charge. This makes Riri Williams the veritable straw that broke the camelís back.
    This is an interesting point.

    Tony Stark has only recently (at the beginning of ANAD) been positioned as Marvel's flagship character and even at that his sales were behind X-men and Amazing Spider-man. Outside of Heroes Reborn/Return and the amazing Micheline run in the 80s/90s, Iron Man has NOT been a top seller and was replaced by the horrible "Teen Tony" because of poor sales at the time. Gillen's run that preceded Tom Taylor's Superior Iron Man was selling less than Riri Williams as Iron Heart (a fact that some people have tried hard to ignore). My point is, Iron Man has NEVER been a sales juggernaut and hasn't been at the forefront of Marvel until Civil War. Amongst comic books fans, a whole lot of people don't really care about Iron Man except when Robert Downey Jr is playing him.

    Now, the most recent sales slump occurred sometime towards the tail end of Marvel NOW. This also coincided with absolute cratering of DCs sales and a slump in Image sales. Around this time, Thor had fallen into the lower 30k range while Captain America, Hulk and Iron Man had fallen into the 20k range. The only line of books that were really selling well was the Batman line over at DC.

    There was no way Marvel wouldn't "tamper" with the likes of Hulk, Iron Man and Captain America when their sales were so low, the changes that Marvel made on these books wasn't just because they had "an agenda", it's because they weren't selling well in the first place.

  8. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    It's true that the comic industry has never been able to reach the heights it did in the early 90s, before the collapse. Even so, the industry has managed to survive for decades beyond that point and even release some great new storylines along the way. It's only in the last 18 months or so that Marvel has entered into a death spiral and seems to be taking the rest of the industry with it.

    It's no coincidence that this happened at the same time as the largest uptake in replacing iconic heroes with new stand-ins. If anything the loss of Tony Stark was probably the catalyst for the steepest decline. Iron Man is Marvel's flagship hero, not Spider-Man and certainly not Captain Marvel. I think that fans were willing to put-up with a lot of crap from Marvel so long as they still got to see Tony Stark leading the charge. This makes Riri Williams the veritable straw that broke the camel’s back.
    I don't think that You are right.

    That was combo of too many events, relaunches and replacing/kicking all popular characters.
    events without any break (civil war 2(june 2016-december 2017), ivx(december 2016 - april 2017), monster something(january 2017-april 2017), secret empire (april 2017 - august 2017)...
    relaunches ... once per 12 months
    replacing/kicking all popular characters (hulk dead, iron man dead, cap hydra, wolverine dead, jean dead, cyclops dead)

    and yes i wrote events and relaunches because things like this are more important.

    Iron Man is Marvel's flagship hero, not Spider-Man and certainly not Captain Marvel. I think that fans were willing to put-up with a lot of crap from Marvel so long as they still got to see Tony Stark leading the charge.
    More people read stories of Spider man or Wolverine because they are bigger than Iron Man.
    Iron Man alone can be replaced. Only few % of people would care.
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  9. #594
    Fantastic Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    This is an interesting point.

    Tony Stark has only recently (at the beginning of ANAD) been positioned as Marvel's flagship character and even at that his sales were behind X-men and Amazing Spider-man. Outside of Heroes Reborn/Return and the amazing Micheline run in the 80s/90s, Iron Man has NOT been a top seller and was replaced by the horrible "Teen Tony" because of poor sales at the time. Gillen's run that preceded Tom Taylor's Superior Iron Man was selling less than Riri Williams as Iron Heart (a fact that some people have tried hard to ignore). My point is, Iron Man has NEVER been a sales juggernaut and hasn't been at the forefront of Marvel until Civil War. Amongst comic books fans, a whole lot of people don't really care about Iron Man except when Robert Downey Jr is playing him.
    ANAD began in 2015 but Iron Man has been Marvel's flagship hero since 2008, with the launch of his first movie. Make no mistake, Iron Man saved the company, Tony Stark as portray by Robert Downey Jr saved Marvel from the verge of bankruptcy. It's only Marvel's stupidity since then that has hamstrung Iron Man's sales figures in the comic world. I mean, Marvel suddenly had in their hands the coolest superhero in the world and they did absolutely nothing to capitalise on that good fortune. The surprise (not)assassination of Tony Stark by Captain Marvel in Civil War II, only to be replaced by total newbie Riri Williams, is just the latest in a long line of idiotic decisions that are only hurting the bottom line.

  10. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    ANAD began in 2015 but Iron Man has been Marvel's flagship hero since 2008, with the launch of his first movie. Make no mistake, Iron Man saved the company, Tony Stark as portray by Robert Downey Jr saved Marvel from the verge of bankruptcy. It's only Marvel's stupidity since then that has hamstrung Iron Man's sales figures in the comic world. I mean, Marvel suddenly had in their hands the coolest superhero in the world and they did absolutely nothing to capitalise on that good fortune. The surprise (not)assassination of Tony Stark by Captain Marvel in Civil War II, only to be replaced by total newbie Riri Williams, is just the latest in a long line of idiotic decisions that are only hurting the bottom line.
    Iron Man didn't save Marvel from Bankruptcy. Also Spider-Man has always been the face of Marvel I mean there is a reason everyone celebrated his coming to the MCU because it was weird for Marvel not to have their poster boy in the MCU.

  11. #596
    Fantastic Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Iron Man didn't save Marvel from Bankruptcy. Also Spider-Man has always been the face of Marvel I mean there is a reason everyone celebrated his coming to the MCU because it was weird for Marvel not to have their poster boy in the MCU.
    Back in the 2008, with the launch of the Iron Man movie, it was literally a bet the farm moment for Marvel. The failure of Iron Man would have meant the bankruptcy of the company, Marvel spent the last of their reserves setting up the studio connections to make Iron Man happen. Which is largely in part thanks to the deals Marvel made with the likes of Sony and Fox, restricting the use of iconic characters like Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four. This meant somebody else had to set-up, somebody more obscure that the Hollywood’s studios hadn't touched yet, the best that Marvel had was Tony Stark - the Invincible Iron Man. The rest, as they say, is history; from the that moment onwards Iron man become Marvel's flagship superhero, which Marvel's mishandling of the comics all the more galling.

  12. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Back in the 2008, with the launch of the Iron Man movie, it was literally a bet the farm moment for Marvel. The failure of Iron Man would have meant the bankruptcy of the company, Marvel spent the last of their reserves setting up the studio connections to make Iron Man happen. Which is largely in part thanks to the deals Marvel made with the likes of Sony and Fox, restricting the use of iconic characters like Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four. This meant somebody else had to set-up, somebody more obscure that the Hollywood’s studios hadn't touched yet, the best that Marvel had was Tony Stark - the Invincible Iron Man. The rest, as they say, is history; from the that moment onwards Iron man become Marvel's flagship superhero, which Marvel's mishandling of the comics all the more galling.
    Gambling your company on a character isn't the same as them saving it. X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, Daredevil, Blade, and all the characters who rights were sold when the company was in actual bankruptcy saved Marvel. Also to this day Spider-Man is Marvel's front and center character especially with merchandising which is where the real money is made and Marvel controls all of Spider-Man's tv and merchandising rights. So yes it Spidey who is still the gold standard of Marvel.

  13. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    ANAD began in 2015 but Iron Man has been Marvel's flagship hero since 2008, with the launch of his first movie. Make no mistake, Iron Man saved the company, Tony Stark as portray by Robert Downey Jr saved Marvel from the verge of bankruptcy. It's only Marvel's stupidity since then that has hamstrung Iron Man's sales figures in the comic world. I mean, Marvel suddenly had in their hands the coolest superhero in the world and they did absolutely nothing to capitalise on that good fortune. The surprise (not)assassination of Tony Stark by Captain Marvel in Civil War II, only to be replaced by total newbie Riri Williams, is just the latest in a long line of idiotic decisions that are only hurting the bottom line.
    Goodness Gracious...NO!

    Iron Man was coming off Civil War and was just re-launched under Fraction to coincide with the movies. It sold well initially but fell off eventually (like 90% of comics in the direct market).

    Marvel Entertainment had come out of bankruptcy LONG before Marvel studios.

    Seriously (and I don't mean any insult) you need to read more on some of this stuff. Iron Man had NOTHING to do with saving Marvel from bankruptcy.

  14. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Gambling your company on a character isn't the same as them saving it. X-Men, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, Daredevil, Blade, and all the characters who rights were sold when the company was in actual bankruptcy saved Marvel. Also to this day Spider-Man is Marvel's front and center character especially with merchandising which is where the real money is made and Marvel controls all of Spider-Man's tv and merchandising rights. So yes it Spidey who is still the gold standard of Marvel.
    Exactly.

    Marvel Entertainment (not the comics, Marvel comics has always been profitable in the midst of the collapse of the 90s) came out of bankruptcy from the movie licensing.

    That pre-dated Marvel studios and Iron Man doesn't even factor into this discussion at all.

  15. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    This. Really and only this. The rest of this thread is the same old argument repeated with the same old players ad nauseam.
    Fortunately... capitalism will win out over every other ideology in this. All the attacks and psedo intellectual posturing are irrelavant to business. I can hardly wait. Laterz.
    The fact that these comics are selling in other places besides the old school market which is dying is in fact capitalism winning.

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