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  1. #31
    Senior Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    I don't find you irritating ... and I hope I've not come across as "bullying" toward you, I've tried to be respectful ... If I've failed at that you have my apologies. I am an Azzarello fan, but I understand why people do not like his run. I just think you've invited some level of criticism from posters because of the commentary you offer, largely because you are going by 3rd party information rather than your own reading of the material. It is particularly obvious in this thread because you did start off with a snide comment about it "only taking 5 minutes to summarize a thin plot line" ... did you really expect people to not react when you put that out there?

    None of that in anyway excuse people for making personal attacks.

    I didn't mean for my initial comment to sound rude but from the 6 issues that I read, there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary filler in them which is what lead to my "watered down" comment. If the rest of the issues that I didn't read followed suit, I can understand why the video above didn't even take 5 minutes to recap most of the major points from them. The silver lining here? Azz's run is almost over so that should solve both of our problems soon. Who knows? Maybe we'll both agree on the Finchs' run - whether it's good or bad.
    Currently reading: Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others, Batgirl, Earth 2, Earth 2: World's End, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Justice League United, Phantom Stranger, Sensation Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, & Worlds Finest.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Darius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I didn't mean for my initial comment to sound rude but from the 6 issues that I read, there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary filler in them which is what lead to my "watered down" comment. If the rest of the issues that I didn't read followed suit, I can understand why the video above didn't even take 5 minutes to recap most of the major points from them. The silver lining here? Azz's run is almost over so that should solve both of our problems soon. Who knows? Maybe we'll both agree on the Finchs' run - whether it's good or bad.
    I'm looking forward to seeing how the finch run goes! I am cautiously optimistic about the potential, but to be honest have yet to be impressed by the art. The interviews have given me some hope that Meredith at least is making a good effort to capture Diana's characterization ... Fingers crossed that we can both find it GOOD!

  3. #33

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    Does anyone know why Azzarello, as the shepherd of the New 52 version of WONDER WOMAN, decided, among other things, not to tell how Diana actually became "Wonder Woman," why she chose London as her base outside Paradise Island (is this supposed to be a nod to the New Themyscira of FLASHPOINT?) and why he perverted some of the core concepts created by William Moulton Marston by turning the Amazons into rapist-killers and having Diana revere Ares when Marston, who created Wonder Woman during wartime, clearly depicted Mars/Ares as an enemy of the Amazons (a concept George Perez strongly underscored in the post-CRISIS reboot of WONDER WOMAN)?

    Because of Azzarello's focus on the soap operatics of the Olympians, readers had to turn to JUSTICE LEAGUE and to some extent FOREVER A.R.G.U.S. to fill in gaps that should really have been addressed in Diana's own book. I'm new to comic book message boards and sites and nothing I've read so far about Azzarello and Chiang has addressed the above questions. And it's just glaring to me that something basic like the origin of the appellation "Wonder Woman" was not explored in WONDER WOMAN and consequently not mentioned in this DC YouTube clip.

  4. #34
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    It's because he's decided not to tell us her origin -yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Azzarello View Post
    Listen, I approached this pretty much the same way we approached 100 Bullets. If we’re going to be doing this story that’s long, we need to know where we’re going. We need to know the end. So we’ll have the end, and then we’ll work backward, and fill in things along the way. So it’s the same approach with 100 Bullets that Cliff and I took with Wonder Woman.
    We know what we’re doing, I think. Despite what everyone thinks. [Laughs]
    Taken from http://comicsalliance.com/brian-azza...man-interview/

    "Work backwards" essentially means writing backwards, that he'll give away the beginning/origin towards the ending. He did this in 100Bullets and will also in Wonder Woman with the Secret Origins #6 that comes out the week after WW#33. This worked really really well in 100B (how it tied into the ending.), and I think it will in Wonder Woman too.

    Makes sense?

    I actually have no idea why concepts like bondage, Diana loosing her strength when bound by a man, casual racism etc. isn't included in the current book. But I think I know why for example Ares (sad to his core) and Hades (sad little man) are written the way they are. And that is because Azzarello writes his characters in shades of grey with their flaws making them who or what they are. Basically noir, which probably explains the pulpy feel of his and Chiang's run on the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Azzarello View Post
    “What makes a good noir story? Let me answer that for you: it’s a great mistake.”
    Taken from http://www.nycgraphicnovelists.com/2...crime-and.html, an interview that also brings up some further similarities in how he approached writing Batman: “I always treated the cape as a trenchcoat,” Brian states. Making Batman less Dark knight and more Detective.
    Last edited by borntohula; 08-22-2014 at 12:47 AM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCER View Post
    Does anyone know why Azzarello, as the shepherd of the New 52 version of WONDER WOMAN, decided, among other things, not to tell how Diana actually became "Wonder Woman," why she chose London as her base outside Paradise Island (is this supposed to be a nod to the New Themyscira of FLASHPOINT?) and why he perverted some of the core concepts created by William Moulton Marston by turning the Amazons into rapist-killers and having Diana revere Ares when Marston, who created Wonder Woman during wartime, clearly depicted Mars/Ares as an enemy of the Amazons (a concept George Perez strongly underscored in the post-CRISIS reboot of WONDER WOMAN)?

    Because of Azzarello's focus on the soap operatics of the Olympians, readers had to turn to JUSTICE LEAGUE and to some extent FOREVER A.R.G.U.S. to fill in gaps that should really have been addressed in Diana's own book. I'm new to comic book message boards and sites and nothing I've read so far about Azzarello and Chiang has addressed the above questions. And it's just glaring to me that something basic like the origin of the appellation "Wonder Woman" was not explored in WONDER WOMAN and consequently not mentioned in this DC YouTube clip.

    Hopefully the Secret Origins' tale will answer the first 2 questions. As for the rest, I doubt we'll ever really find out. I just hope at some point, some other writer reveals that only the Bana tribe Amazons participated in the raids and WAres is brought back as a full-fledged evil God of War.
    Currently reading: Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others, Batgirl, Earth 2, Earth 2: World's End, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Justice League United, Phantom Stranger, Sensation Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, & Worlds Finest.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCER View Post
    Does anyone know why Azzarello, as the shepherd of the New 52 version of WONDER WOMAN, decided, among other things, not to tell how Diana actually became "Wonder Woman," why she chose London as her base outside Paradise Island (is this supposed to be a nod to the New Themyscira of FLASHPOINT?) and why he perverted some of the core concepts created by William Moulton Marston by turning the Amazons into rapist-killers and having Diana revere Ares when Marston, who created Wonder Woman during wartime, clearly depicted Mars/Ares as an enemy of the Amazons (a concept George Perez strongly underscored in the post-CRISIS reboot of WONDER WOMAN)?

    Because of Azzarello's focus on the soap operatics of the Olympians, readers had to turn to JUSTICE LEAGUE and to some extent FOREVER A.R.G.U.S. to fill in gaps that should really have been addressed in Diana's own book. I'm new to comic book message boards and sites and nothing I've read so far about Azzarello and Chiang has addressed the above questions. And it's just glaring to me that something basic like the origin of the appellation "Wonder Woman" was not explored in WONDER WOMAN and consequently not mentioned in this DC YouTube clip.
    As Dr. Poison said the Secret Origins issue for October will explain her origin.

    But the Ares point is interesting. There was still a lot of animosity between Diana and War, but War himself was a much more sympathetic character. His arc during Act II was one of my favorite parts of the book actually, because Wonder Woman had to come to terms with her connection to Ares and ultimately take her place.

    As for why he did this, I think it's because Azzarello wanted to tell a "Greek" story. While I do miss WW frequently swearing to Hera, the Greek version of Hera was... Well let's just say a bitch. And that is reflected in the first act of this run. Ares is in turn no longer a muahaha evil god but much more representative of what war is (I don't know any examples of Ares having a major role in Greek myth like Hera or Poseidon). Maybe at some point in his centuries-long career he's been the megalomaniacal warmonger, but he's definitely lost his taste for it by the present.

    I won't say anything about the raids for fear of the arguments that would start, but by the end of this run it looks like the Amazons will be past that.

    PS: to whoever brought up Amazon vs Amazonian, the latter is used IRL to describe things in the Amazon Rain Forest.
    Doop Was Right

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I didn't mean for my initial comment to sound rude but from the 6 issues that I read, there seemed to be a lot of unnecessary filler in them which is what lead to my "watered down" comment. If the rest of the issues that I didn't read followed suit, I can understand why the video above didn't even take 5 minutes to recap most of the major points from them. The silver lining here? Azz's run is almost over so that should solve both of our problems soon. Who knows? Maybe we'll both agree on the Finchs' run - whether it's good or bad.
    Any story can be recapped in 5 minutes, or one sentence, if you strip it down enough. The Odyssey is one of the core epics in Western literature, and you could summarize it by saying a guy returning from war has angered gods, so he is forced to endure decades of wandering and running into terrors, until he returns home, reunites with his son and murders his wife's suitors. But reading that sentence doesn't replace reading the epic. The sentence eaves out details and epic digressions that some might call "unnecessary filler," though that "filler" is what has made that book so important in the Western tradition. I'm not saying Azz's run is great literature, but I am saying that a version reduced to six issues would be "watered down"--not the other way around. A lot of the so-called "unnecessary filler" was interesting and fun for some of us.
    "'Maybe,'" Mister Ernest said. "The best word in our language, the best of all. That's what mankind keeps going on: Maybe. The best days of his life ain't the ones when he said 'Yes' beforehand: they're the ones when all he knew to say was 'Maybe.' He can't say 'Yes' until afterward because he not only don't know it until then, he don't want to know 'Yes' until then. . . "--William Faulkner in "Race at Dawn"

  8. #38
    Senior Member Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    One of the biggest failings of Mr. Azzarello's run, I think, has been his seeming inability to focus on his most important characters in a way that tells you, "These are the most important characters. Pay attention."

    Since most of his run has been much needed world-building, I feel that he's written this like a kid with a box of toys, playing with one and, then, another, ..ignoring or discarding a few as he tires, and nap time approaches. This has left a few characters sorely lacking the necessary jolt they need to make any lasting impact on us.

    Zola, who seems rather outrageous, is far less outrageous or hot-wired as she was, when we first met her. Less than she could be, I think. Like it or not, Zola is the inheritor of Etta Candy's role in the comic, the feisty, imperfect everywoman, against whom we helplessly compare Diana, ..and whose interactions with Diana should conceivably help define the leading lady (WW) and humanize her. We should have seen more action with Zola, by now, but she and Hera really haven't had much to do. Motherhood shouldn't have mellowed her that much. A little dull, now.

    Lennox...don't get me started. Here's a character, who, in one of the X-titles, might the biggest DC character find, since the cloned Superboy ..or the new White Queen. People argue that's never what Lennox was meant to be, but, I argue it's absolutely what he could and should have been, had he been made a little more dynamic a personality. He swaggers into the comic, a wiseacre, world-weary British super-soldier, before he - a shell of a character - is entirely eclipsed by the ubiquitous Hermes and the better known Orion. Growing duller and more irrelevant with every issue, he eventually emerges as the kill-off player, a red shirt, and exits the comic, with virtually no impact on the story being told - a cardboard cut-out and waste of everyone's time.

    What about Aleka? Seriously...what about her? She lumbers into the story with all this hot, long-standing resentment for Diana,.. and who cares? What differnce did any of that make, ..and, then, she DIES?! What?

    It's like he creates these characters, whose enigmatic single-name handles - Zola, Lennox - should follow dynamic, performances that invite us to make them legends. However, because he leaves them so underdeveloped, they come off as feeling like unfinished shells of characters, with little or no ability to make any impact, at all. Lennox calls Zola a 'firecracker', while's barely crackling, in my opinion. Lennox is a brawler, who backs off of several opportunities to scrap with Hermes, Orion or even [Gag. Choke.] ..Eros? Hera makes nasty quips and is rarely without a drink for very long, ..which makes it nearly inconceivable how she fought, at Zeus's side in the war between Olympians and Titans, held her position as Zeus's wife for MILLENNIA and terrorized mankind into making her one of the most important deities of the classical world.

    Mr. Azzarello's story is filled with underwhelming characters that could and should have been more than they turned out to be. I'm a little disappointed, but, the supporting cast is barely interesting enough to inspire disappointment. The high point of this is that there are potentially interesting players on the stage for future writers to flesh out, and that's what Azzarello told us he would do.

    I still want to see an 'Army' that prominently features a Zola and ANY-body comedy component. Whether it's Zola and Hera, or Zola and Aleka, or Zola and Diana, I want to see this, because she's perfect for comic relief, AND it would be legendary, ..and why not? Zola is potentially as great a side player, as Rick Jones, Lois Lane, Flash Thompson, Alfred ..or ARTEMIS!

    I want to see Lennox resurrected, restored to whatever his youtful power levels were - he's eighty years old - and re-introduced as a major badass, action player, because it's already in his narrative DNA to be exactly that. I want to see some writer introduce something or things that hold him together enough to make him nigh invulnerable, before throwing him out into the DCU to be the major star that he should be - the sensation that Stan Lee would have made him back in Marvel's heyday.

    I'd also like to see Aleka resurrected, if Artemis doesn't eventually join the cast.

    The stage is set.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-24-2014 at 02:09 AM.
    Now, discover the story of Wonder Woman's immortal cousin! From the pages of classical mythology... The PRINCE HIPPOLYTOS Homepage!

  9. #39
    Senior Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Any story can be recapped in 5 minutes, or one sentence, if you strip it down enough. The Odyssey is one of the core epics in Western literature, and you could summarize it by saying a guy returning from war has angered gods, so he is forced to endure decades of wandering and running into terrors, until he returns home, reunites with his son and murders his wife's suitors. But reading that sentence doesn't replace reading the epic. The sentence eaves out details and epic digressions that some might call "unnecessary filler," though that "filler" is what has made that book so important in the Western tradition. I'm not saying Azz's run is great literature, but I am saying that a version reduced to six issues would be "watered down"--not the other way around. A lot of the so-called "unnecessary filler" was interesting and fun for some of us.
    I think Mel Dyer summed up most of the issues with this run a lot more elaborately than I did. I'm not denying that some people have enjoyed every little aspect of this run but again, like Mel said, where did a lot of these characters/moments lead to? Lennox, Aleka, and Apollo were all set up giving off the vibe that they could and would be major players in the Wonder Woman universe for years to come and now what? They're all pushing up daisies. How much would have really been lost from the overall story if these characters had been omitted and the run was therefore shortened? Also - I never said the run should be shorted to 6 issues. I said 18 would be more realistic.
    Currently reading: Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others, Batgirl, Earth 2, Earth 2: World's End, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Justice League United, Phantom Stranger, Sensation Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, & Worlds Finest.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Darius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I think Mel Dyer summed up most of the issues with this run a lot more elaborately than I did. I'm not denying that some people have enjoyed every little aspect of this run but again, like Mel said, where did a lot of these characters/moments lead to? Lennox, Aleka, and Apollo were all set up giving off the vibe that they could and would be major players in the Wonder Woman universe for years to come and now what? They're all pushing up daisies. How much would have really been lost from the overall story if these characters had been omitted and the run was therefore shortened? Also - I never said the run should be shorted to 6 issues. I said 18 would be more realistic.
    It would have destroyed the run to eliminate these characters. Apollo is where the FB prophesy came from, Lennox was Diana's liaison into her half-sibling family and Aleka was both a lesson and a warning for Diana in dealing with the amazons in general. Seeing her transform into Zola and Zeke's protector and die trying to protect them shows us how much Diana really has effected the Amazons. I know that to a non-reader that getting a top-line probably makes these characters seem unimportant, but without them, and others the story would fall down like a house of cards.

    I think the fundamental flaw non-readers are making is the assumption that every character Azzarello introduced was meant to be a decades spanning addition to the WW myths ... Certainly some have that potential should the Finches decide to continue using them (Zola, Hera, some of the half-siblings, assuming they live). But Azzarello always meant to have many others die during this war for Olympus so he built in specific purposes for them and killed them off once those were completed.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    It would have destroyed the run to eliminate these characters. Apollo is where the FB prophesy came from, Lennox was Diana's liaison into her half-sibling family and Aleka was both a lesson and a warning for Diana in dealing with the amazons in general. Seeing her transform into Zola and Zeke's protector and die trying to protect them shows us how much Diana really has effected the Amazons. I know that to a non-reader that getting a top-line probably makes these characters seem unimportant, but without them, and others the story would fall down like a house of cards.

    I think the fundamental flaw non-readers are making is the assumption that every character Azzarello introduced was meant to be a decades spanning addition to the WW myths ... Certainly some have that potential should the Finches decide to continue using them (Zola, Hera, some of the half-siblings, assuming they live). But Azzarello always meant to have many others die during this war for Olympus so he built in specific purposes for them and killed them off once those were completed.

    Sounds a lot like Marv Wolfman's Kole - created to be killed. In any case, you're dismissing my opinion because I stopped reading the book after giving it 2 tries and 6 issues but what about Mel's? He's said he's read the book well into the 20s(as of his last update).
    Currently reading: Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others, Batgirl, Earth 2, Earth 2: World's End, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Justice League United, Phantom Stranger, Sensation Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, & Worlds Finest.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Darius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Sounds a lot like Marv Wolfman's Kole - created to be killed. In any case, you're dismissing my opinion because I stopped reading the book after giving it 2 tries and 6 issues but what about Mel's? He's said he's read the book well into the 20s(as of his last update).
    I'm not dismissing your opinions, only your knowledge of the topic, you made a comment I responded to it with my opinion. Mel sees it differently ... Azzarello isn't for everyone, I wouldn't expect it to be. I just don't understand why all you who dislike him so much put so much effort into complaining about a run that is basically in the past. Might as well complain about WML's run or Byrne's ... We've all heard the anti-Azzarello commentary for years now and it only goes in circles.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    I'm not dismissing your opinions, only your knowledge of the topic, you made a comment I responded to it with my opinion. Mel sees it differently ... Azzarello isn't for everyone, I wouldn't expect it to be. I just don't understand why all you who dislike him so much put so much effort into complaining about a run that is basically in the past. Might as well complain about WML's run or Byrne's ... We've all heard the anti-Azzarello commentary for years now and it only goes in circles.

    I wonder - are you going to hold those who still praise Azzarello's run to the same light? Should they stop praising the run since it's basically in the past and it goes in circles as well? If so, I'd welcome that.
    Currently reading: Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others, Batgirl, Earth 2, Earth 2: World's End, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Justice League United, Phantom Stranger, Sensation Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, & Worlds Finest.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    It would have destroyed the run to eliminate these characters. Apollo is where the FB prophesy came from, Lennox was Diana's liaison into her half-sibling family and Aleka was both a lesson and a warning for Diana in dealing with the amazons in general. Seeing her transform into Zola and Zeke's protector and die trying to protect them shows us how much Diana really has effected the Amazons. I know that to a non-reader that getting a top-line probably makes these characters seem unimportant, but without them, and others the story would fall down like a house of cards.

    I think the fundamental flaw non-readers are making is the assumption that every character Azzarello introduced was meant to be a decades spanning addition to the WW myths ... Certainly some have that potential should the Finches decide to continue using them (Zola, Hera, some of the half-siblings, assuming they live). But Azzarello always meant to have many others die during this war for Olympus so he built in specific purposes for them and killed them off once those were completed.
    You're missing the point, I think.

    It's not Mr. Azzarello's killing off major characters or creating characters specifically to be killed off that we're questioning...no, no, no. It's that these so-called 'major' characters were never developed enough to really make a the maximum impact in the story being told. It's as if characters, ..like Zola, Lennox and Aleka (who was a snake), ..never completely clicked or boomed or peaked dramatically, even though we've been following them for over twenty-plus issues, ..and that left me feeling lead-on and that my time had been wasted. A major or even supporting character's death, in a comic book, should create some kind of narrative shockwave or consequences - SOME-thing! I don't think any of these characters, except possibly Zola, have proven to be that consequential to Diana or the overall story.

    Again, that wasteful, pointless, unfinished feeling.
    Now, discover the story of Wonder Woman's immortal cousin! From the pages of classical mythology... The PRINCE HIPPOLYTOS Homepage!

  15. #45
    Metahumane MykeHavoc's Avatar
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    I don't know. I've read every issue. I say if a writer introduces a character, they have the right to do what is necessary to them to tell the best story possible. Yes, Lennox was a lot if fun, but since this is pretty much all one massive story, Azz may have very well have structured out all the beats, including deaths. And it wouldn't take much for a new writer to bring him back. As long as its creative and they do him right, I have no issue. But I'm taking a break from the solo book until I hear some word of mouth on the new team.

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