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  1. #46
    Senior Member Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    You're missing the point, I think.

    It's not Mr. Azzarello's killing off major characters or creating characters specifically to be killed off that we're questioning...no, no, no. It's that these so-called 'major' characters were never developed enough to really make a the maximum impact in the story being told. It's as if characters, ..like Zola, Lennox and Aleka (who was a snake), ..never completely clicked or boomed or peaked dramatically, even though we've been following them for over twenty-plus issues, ..and that left me feeling lead-on and that my time had been wasted. A major or even supporting character's death, in a comic book, should create some kind of narrative shockwave or consequences - SOME-thing! I don't think any of these characters, except possibly Zola, have proven to be that consequential to Diana or the overall story.

    Again, that wasteful, pointless, unfinished feeling.
    Well...I think I'm pretty much caught up on the Chiazzarello Wonder Woman run (Issues #23-33), ..and while I did find the comics to be somewhat entertaining, my opinion is unchanged.

    Mr. Azzarello has created a FANTASTIC stage for future WW stories to be told upon and equipped it with potentially fantastic supporting characters, ..all of which this comic has desperately lacked, over the last twenty-plus years. However, while leaving them virtual tabula rasas for future writers to build upon, they lack the necessary depth to make a significant dramatic mark on the story, presently being told. He REALLY runs into a problem, when he kills off characters, like Lennox and Aleka, whose underdeveloped states make their deaths almost irrelevant to the story.

    Lennox's head appears to still be sitting on a mantle, and Aleka's just didn't matter that much. In a story that's light on big moments, every opportunity to make an impact on we, the readers, should be exploited, ..and I don't think Mr. Azzarello has accomplished that. Perhaps, it wasn't his intention to do so. There still seems to be so much waste, here.

    The story is also way, WA-aay longer than it needs to be, which is stockpiling WW ..became more appealing to me, than reading it.

    It leaves Wonder Woman, Zola and Hermes, with Hera and the others twisting above and around them, standing at the eye of this narrative hurricane, ..and maybe, that's as it should be. And there's Zeke, of course...
    Now, discover the story of Wonder Woman's immortal cousin! From the pages of classical mythology... The PRINCE HIPPOLYTOS Homepage!

  2. #47
    Senior Member Darius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    You're missing the point, I think.

    It's not Mr. Azzarello's killing off major characters or creating characters specifically to be killed off that we're questioning...no, no, no. It's that these so-called 'major' characters were never developed enough to really make a the maximum impact in the story being told. It's as if characters, ..like Zola, Lennox and Aleka (who was a snake), ..never completely clicked or boomed or peaked dramatically, even though we've been following them for over twenty-plus issues, ..and that left me feeling lead-on and that my time had been wasted. A major or even supporting character's death, in a comic book, should create some kind of narrative shockwave or consequences - SOME-thing! I don't think any of these characters, except possibly Zola, have proven to be that consequential to Diana or the overall story.

    Again, that wasteful, pointless, unfinished feeling.
    I get what you are saying, but I never thought most of these characters where meant for more ... Diana is the center of this title, despite what some say, the whole thing is about how she impacts the supporting characters. Aleka didn't need much screen time, she's an archetype Amazon put into place to illustrate that Diana changed the hearts of her people. So much so that they would die for their new beliefs. Lennox and the other sibs show how she can win the loyalty of even the most difficult people and her leadership skills. Zola is there to illustrate Diana's loyalty to protecting those that need it ... Azzarello is writing a Greek myth, and you'll see that the structure is similar, including how characters are treated.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    I get what you are saying, but I never thought most of these characters where meant for more ... Diana is the center of this title, despite what some say, the whole thing is about how she impacts the supporting characters. Aleka didn't need much screen time, she's an archetype Amazon put into place to illustrate that Diana changed the hearts of her people. So much so that they would die for their new beliefs. Lennox and the other sibs show how she can win the loyalty of even the most difficult people and her leadership skills. Zola is there to illustrate Diana's loyalty to protecting those that need it ... Azzarello is writing a Greek myth, and you'll see that the structure is similar, including how characters are treated.
    As I've said many times before, I think what Mr. Azzarello is doing is genius and probably the best thing that's happened to Wonder Woman, since Xena: WP aired. He's no Julius Swartz, though.
    Now, discover the story of Wonder Woman's immortal cousin! From the pages of classical mythology... The PRINCE HIPPOLYTOS Homepage!

  4. #49
    Senior Member Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Diana sharing a house with Zola and Hermes is going be funny. Diana sharing a house with Zola and Aleka would have been stroke-level belly laughs.
    Now, discover the story of Wonder Woman's immortal cousin! From the pages of classical mythology... The PRINCE HIPPOLYTOS Homepage!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I think Mel Dyer summed up most of the issues with this run a lot more elaborately than I did. I'm not denying that some people have enjoyed every little aspect of this run but again, like Mel said, where did a lot of these characters/moments lead to? Lennox, Aleka, and Apollo were all set up giving off the vibe that they could and would be major players in the Wonder Woman universe for years to come and now what?
    They're all pushing up daisies. How much would have really been lost from the overall story if these characters had been omitted and the run was therefore shortened?
    Well, a bunch of interesting scenes--like Diana's duels with Aleka in 2 and 0, or Artemis' grief over Apollo, or Lennox's sacrifice--would have been lost without those characters. To me, what's important isn't only whether a supporting character contributes to the final resolution of the story--it's more whether that character contributes to a satisfying read along the way.

    For the story as a whole, What I think would have been lost with each of those characters is a different perspective, or point of contrast, defining who Wonder Woman is.

    Without Apollo, there wouldn't be the arrogant child of privilege to contrast to Wonder Woman. With the First Born as the other extreme (the completely abandoned child), Apollo offsets Wonder Woman and highlights by contrast that she is the child who was raised in humility and love.

    Without Aleka, there wouldn't be such a loud, clear voice exemplifyng what Diana had to contend with as a child who was growing up "different."

    Without Lennox, we wouldn't have gotten to see Wonder Woman emerge from out of the shadow of a more seasoned, and more cynical, big brother. (By the way, I do think that in this case Azz could have done a little more to show how Lennox was before Diana influenced him. It seems to me that we were supposed to understand that he was more of a self-centered rough customer before Wonder Woman inspired him to be the kind of person who'd give his life for his family. But we only get hints of how rough and self-centered he may have been before.)

    In the end, it's really all about Wonder Woman (as Darius says). These other characters were here less for there own sake than as windows and points of view on her. And that's OK with me; it's her book, after all. At the same time, it would also be OK with me if other writers eventually bring them back; it's not like death is final in comics.

    Also - I never said the run should be shorted to 6 issues. I said 18 would be more realistic.
    Yeah, fair enough, that is what you said. I didn't mean "six issues" as a direct response to you; I was just comparing this long epic story to a typical arc of six issues or so.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 08-25-2014 at 11:27 AM.
    "'Maybe,'" Mister Ernest said. "The best word in our language, the best of all. That's what mankind keeps going on: Maybe. The best days of his life ain't the ones when he said 'Yes' beforehand: they're the ones when all he knew to say was 'Maybe.' He can't say 'Yes' until afterward because he not only don't know it until then, he don't want to know 'Yes' until then. . . "--William Faulkner in "Race at Dawn"

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Without Aleka, there wouldn't be such a loud, clear voice exemplifyng what Diana had to contend with as a child who was growing up "different."
    Being that she's being on the cover of WW#35, I think there'll be more to her

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Without Lennox, we wouldn't have gotten to see Wonder Woman emerge from out of the shadow of a more seasoned, and more cynical, big brother. (By the way, I do think that in this case Azz could have done a little more to show how Lennox was before Diana influenced him. It seems to me that we were supposed to understand that he was more of a self-centered rough customer before Wonder Woman inspired him to be the kind of person who'd give his life for his family. But we only get hints of how rough and self-centered he may have been before.)
    I think we'll get to know more about Lennox through Cassandra and/or Milan. His head on the fire place could for example function as something more than a funny Hera-moment

    Perhaps some "oh so that's why" scene similar to Hades by his father/throne in WW#30.
    Last edited by borntohula; 08-25-2014 at 11:30 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by borntohula View Post
    Being that she's being on the cover of WW#35, I think there'll be more to her
    Very possibly, though I think that the cover is about highlighting the women Wonder Woman has gathered around herself (by restoring the Amazons, reforming Hera, and so on), especially during the last couple of years of the run, and not necessarily about showing who will or will not be in the issue. Anyway, I only meant to say that something would have been missing if Aleka has been omitted from the book altogether, since that's what Dr. Poison was asking about; I didn't mean to suggest that having her die is necessarily a big problem from my point of view.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 08-25-2014 at 04:27 PM.
    "'Maybe,'" Mister Ernest said. "The best word in our language, the best of all. That's what mankind keeps going on: Maybe. The best days of his life ain't the ones when he said 'Yes' beforehand: they're the ones when all he knew to say was 'Maybe.' He can't say 'Yes' until afterward because he not only don't know it until then, he don't want to know 'Yes' until then. . . "--William Faulkner in "Race at Dawn"

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Very possibly, though I think that the cover is about highlighting the women Wonder Woman has gathered around herself (by restoring the Amazons, reforming Hera, and so on), especially during the last couple of years of the run, and not necessarily about showing who will or will not be in the issue. Anyway, I only meant to say that something would have been missing if Aleka has been omitted from the book altogether, since that's what Dr. Poison was asking about; I didn't mean to suggest that having her die is necessarily a big problem from my point of view.
    Frankly, I feel I have no idea what the cover really means other than that it'll probably be a surprise.

    And dead or not, I believe there'll be more on her. A little spin or something

  9. #54
    Senior Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by borntohula View Post
    Frankly, I feel I have no idea what the cover really means other than that it'll probably be a surprise.

    And dead or not, I believe there'll be more on her. A little spin or something

    Perhaps in Azz's final issue, he'll reveal that Aleka was really a man who pretended to be a woman so he wouldn't be traded to Hephaestus for weaponry. :P
    Currently reading: Aquaman, Aquaman & the Others, Batgirl, Earth 2, Earth 2: World's End, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Justice League United, Phantom Stranger, Sensation Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, & Worlds Finest.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Perhaps in Azz's final issue, he'll reveal that Aleka was really a man who pretended to be a woman so he wouldn't be traded to Hephaestus for weaponry. :P
    While I wouldn't put it past Azzarello writing a transvestite or transexual character (I think he'd write a great story involving either cross dressing or transsexuality.) I'm quite sure it's not the case with Aleka. Knowing Azzarello there'll probably be some (pun filled close to painful) wordplay topped with some working class wisdom
    Last edited by borntohula; 08-26-2014 at 09:36 AM.

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