Thread: Wrestling WWE

  1. #48856
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vworp Vworp View Post
    There's a mightily big difference between a heel cheating an individual wrestler out of a great moment and bad booking cheating an entire gender out of one. Nobody is questioning the concept of heels cheating to win. Nor is anyone saying they didn't expect Ellsworth to get involved or play some part in the outcome. What people didn't expect - or want - was for Ellsworth to be the outcome.

    You keep drawing parallels with the outcomes of male matches but it's a completely false comparison. Why? Because for the screamingly obvious reason that the men already have... everything. More belts, more TV time, more wrestlers - there's no glass ceiling for male wrestlers as a gender. This should have been a defining moment for the women's division and so it should have been about the women's division. But it wasn't.

    Here's the thing. If you don't care about women's wrestling, that's fair enough. A lot of people still don't and I suspect some people never will. But maybe acknowledge the fact that many people do. And we want to see the Women in the industry thrive. Which is why booking like this is going to create this sort of reaction. Not heat. Just resigned frustration.
    What makes you think I don't care about women's wrestling? I wouldn't be having this discussion if I wasn't invested. I hold them to same standard as the male wrestlers. I been doing this since NXT treating them that way since 2014.

    I have no doubt in my mind the WWE knew of what the reaction of the Ellsworth finish would have been given the immediate reaction to it. Nia Jax, Tamina and Bayley are reacting to it the same way you are. Ellsworth is milking it for all it's worth. Honestly there's more story to built off of with what they did then how fans wanted it to play out. Carmella is has put in a spot where she will be the top heel of the women's division. She will not give a shit about how harmful Ellsworth's actions was. She had everything to gain from it. It is great material to give her heat and built solid feuds from.

  2. #48857
    Class 5 Roaming Vapor BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    It's a great way to give Carmella X-Pac heat.

    WWE fucked it up. They are not capable of salvaging a story line much less planning something big out in this day and age. I know they pissed off my daughter and lost a new fan. They just told all the little girls that you are a joke.
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  3. #48858
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    It's a great way to give Carmella X-Pac heat.

    WWE fucked it up. They are not capable of salvaging a story line much less planning something big out in this day and age. I know they pissed off my daughter and lost a new fan. They just told all the little girls that you are a joke.
    How would it give Carmella the performer X-pac heat when she isn't the problem?

  4. #48859
    Mighty Member Vworp Vworp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    What makes you think I don't care about women's wrestling?
    Because of your blanket refusal to see this beyond your perception of what actually happened last night?

    Case in point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    I have no doubt in my mind the WWE knew of what the reaction of the Ellsworth finish would have been given the immediate reaction to it. Nia Jax, Tamina and Bayley are reacting to it the same way you are. Ellsworth is milking it for all it's worth. Honestly there's more story to built off of with what they did then how fans wanted it to play out. Carmella is has put in a spot where she will be the top heel of the women's division. She will not give a shit about how harmful Ellsworth's actions was. She had everything to gain from it. It is great material to give her heat and built solid feuds from.
    Nia and Bayley are reacting in a kayfabe way to a kayfabe outcome by blaming Ellsworth. Tamina's tweet might be been seen as a dig at creative, but she wasn't explicit. And you can't really blame her.

    And again with the "there's more story" excuse. More than what? What story can come out of this? Where does it go? The other women are angry at Ellsworth for getting involved? Coulda happened without Ellsworth getting the briefcase. The other women are angry at Carmella for having help? Coulda happened without Ellsworth getting the briefcase. Basically, any scenario you can envisage could still have been achieved with Carmella climbing the ladder herself, just with Ellsworth's help. It still would have sucked. But not to the monumental degree that it actually did.

    it's probably best we end this here so I'll let you have the last word (which I can guess what the gist of will be anyway). I'm just gonna leave this here to illustrate what last night was really about. Not heat. Just disrespect.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    WWE fucked it up. They are not capable of salvaging a story line much less planning something big out in this day and age. I know they pissed off my daughter and lost a new fan. They just told all the little girls that you are a joke.

  5. #48860
    Incredible Member Powertool's Avatar
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    1) Carmella (with James Ellsworth) defeats Becky Lynch, Charlotte Flair, Natalya and Tamina, Money in the Bank ladder match for the WWE Smackdown Women's Championship contract: 5
    They tried. They didn't succeed. A few not-too-shabby actions coupled with the ineptitude of performers like Tamina and Carmella turned this match into a steady coitus interruptus, the kind that in the end just gets you off the mood. Ellsworth taking the briefcase of the FIRST all-women Money in the Bank on the other hand is like having taken the situation in your hands while watching porn and in the most delicate moment the frame changes and the face of the man appears on your screen.
    WOMEN'S REVOLUTION!
    I can see Carmella with the briefcase but she's still very inadequate on a wrestling ring.

    2) The New Day (Big E and Kofi Kingston) (with Xavier Woods) defeat The Usos (Jimmy Uso and Jey Uso) (c) via count-out, tag team match for the WWE Smackdown Tag Team titles: 6,5
    Good tag match, there's a degree of alchemy between these athletes and they can pull out some nice actions on the ring. The Usos were reborn after their heel turn and gimmick change, while the New Day, after Kofi's absence, is back to great shape. What pity for that conclusion and for the botch at the 3-count -- a really shoddy moment.

    3) Naomi (c) defeats Lana via submission, singles match for the WWE Smackdown Women's Championship: 4, 10+ to Lana though
    Oh, Lord. All those rumours about Lana having gotten a lot better on the ring thanks to her intensive training -- if this is the result, I wonder how much she sucked as a wrestler before! Those ear-piercing shouts are not even out of place, I mean, they are coherent with her character, but I didn't see even half a decent action on the ring. Not that Naomi is a paragon of in-ring ability, but she's not unwatchable either. Unfortunately, in a match where the opponent's preparation is awfully lacking (like Lana) there's nothing that can help her. The only nice moments were Carmella teasing her cash-in and the "We wat Rusev!" chants (had he appeared to win her wife the match he would have been welcomed by the most thunderous pop of his career).

    4) Jinder Mahal (c) (with Smir Singh and Sunil Singh) defeats Randy Orton, singles match for the WWE Championship: 3
    Orton sucks as a wrestler as much as Mahal. Here, I said that. And I'm not taking it back. His selling is awful and the RKO is the only reason why he's not approaching his tenth year in TNA. He kills the Singhs without so much as a by your leave (had it been Anderson hewould've already been fired) and almost makes Mahal look better than him, since at the very least the former knows how to apply a Figure-4. Stop it with Orton as contender for the World Championship, I beg you. Recycle him for the secondary titles, but enough of Orton with the belt. His last 6 out of 10 match was eons ago!

    5) Breezango (Tyler Breeze and Fandango) defeat The Ascension (Konnor and Viktor), tag team match: -
    This match exists just to add a few minutes to the PPV. The conclusion was quite awful (in line with all the ther matches of the PPV, no more and no less). But the Fashion Police with this new attitude are just too entertaining not to be fond of them. Though just by looking at Breeze's pants, my legs began sweating profusely.

    6) Baron Corbin defeats AJ Styles, Dolph Ziggler, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn and Shinsuke Nakamura, Money in the Bank ladder match for the WWE Championship contract: 7+
    I've read in many places people referring to it as a great match, one of the best MITB in the history of this kind of match. It is a very good match, I can agree on that. The performers took some bumps (KO and Styles above all) and the segment where Nakamura and the Phenomenal One push the ladder to the side to beat the snow out of each other is one of the most charming moments ever booked in a MITB. BUT, there's a but. From my point of view, Money in the Bank matches should last between 15 and 20 minutes, half-hour for this kind of match is too much. There were no ignoramus spots a la Shelton Benjamin, there were no tightrope walkers jumping from one ladder to another (I'm thinking to Morrison in 2010), there were no moments where all the athletes climbed the ladders at the same time to reach the briefcase. All in all, I felt that a non-negligible amount of things were not in this match and this factor blocks my score to "just" a 7+, since we're quite far from the first 4 MITB at Wrestlemania (especially the first and the one at WM XXIV) but most importantly we're one step behind last year's edition. Good match, but they should have dared more.

    EXTRA - Debut of Christian "Bobo Vieri" Canalis and of Elisabetta Canalis... Gott im Himmel...
    The hearts on the stage were enough for me to start puking rainbows (and I'm a romantic kind of guy, so if I come to say that you can imagine how bad it was). This couple will fill the void left by Maryse and Miz after the Draft, but as for charisma we're already off to a rocky start.

  6. #48861
    Class 5 Roaming Vapor BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    How would it give Carmella the performer X-pac heat when she isn't the problem?
    No Chin is being used to prop up Carmella. This wasn't a heelish thing, it was stupid. It was the kind of stupid that I’ve come to expect from the WWE so it didn’t entirely bother me. It did turn my daughter off. Not because the wrong person won (she's okay when her favs lose) but because she was flat out disrespected. It was a cheap shot. "Look historic first for women! And a man did it!" That's not how I raise my daughters.

    For every step WWE takes forward, they take 2 back. Ugh. They screwed the pooch and I have a hunch alienated more fans than just my daughter.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

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    Ultimate Member TheInvisibleMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    No Chin is being used to prop up Carmella. This wasn't a heelish thing, it was stupid. It was the kind of stupid that I’ve come to expect from the WWE so it didn’t entirely bother me. It did turn my daughter off. Not because the wrong person won (she's okay when her favs lose) but because she was flat out disrespected. It was a cheap shot. "Look historic first for women! And a man did it!" That's not how I raise my daughters.

    For every step WWE takes forward, they take 2 back. Ugh. They screwed the pooch and I have a hunch alienated more fans than just my daughter.
    Im with Beastie and Vworp on this one

    telling a story at the expense of disrespecting your entire womens division

    dumb
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    Class 5 Roaming Vapor BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    Im with Beastie and Vworp on this one

    telling a story at the expense of disrespecting your entire womens division

    dumb
    This reminds me of all the WCW Cruiserweight booking when WWE took over. It got hot, it wasn't "their" belt so they started jobbing the shit out of people. WCW did this, too, with the cruisers. Same thing is happening with the women. And it's even worse because most of these women are coming from NXT, their OWN FARM SYSTEM!

    Ugh ...
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  9. #48864
    Ultimate Member TheInvisibleMan's Avatar
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    the only way I would consider this "fixed", and it will never happen

    - Ellsworth is fired (because he's on a short term deal anyway)
    - Carmella is stripped of the MITB briefcase
    - another MITB match held at SummerSlam, and Carmella is not allowed to compete
    “If you listen to the fans, you’ll find yourself sitting with them”

    - Joe Kuharich

  10. #48865
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    i can understand where both sides are coming from. i just happen to side with the side liking the ending.

  11. #48866
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    the only way I would consider this "fixed", and it will never happen

    - Ellsworth is fired (because he's on a short term deal anyway)
    - Carmella is stripped of the MITB briefcase
    - another MITB match held at SummerSlam, and Carmella is not allowed to compete
    I'm okay with that.

    The rest ... just make her defend it. And let her get a beat down every time she tries to cash in. Different women each time.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  12. #48867
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I'm okay with that.

    The rest ... just make her defend it. And let her get a beat down every time she tries to cash in. Different women each time.
    you know something?

    that would actually be pretty interesting.

  13. #48868
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    you know something?

    that would actually be pretty interesting.
    It books itself. Everyone is pissed she stole it. She is made to defend it in a big match. In the interim, she tries to cash in and everyone beats the snot out of her so she can't cash in. Maybe have some of the "help" cross paths and start feuds as she coyly tries to cash in. Chaos booking for the win.

    Ignoring Ellsworth would be in their best interest. Otherwise, it's Santina 2.0.
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 06-19-2017 at 04:05 PM.
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  14. #48869
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    It books itself. Everyone is pissed she stole it. She is made to defend it in a big match. In the interim, she tries to cash in and everyone beats the snot out of her so she can't cash in. Chaos booking for the win.
    a heel hated by other heels. that could work.

    not sure about firing ellsworth. i expect some kind of punishment but not that. he's got too much heat on him to just get rid of it.

  15. #48870
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    the only way I would consider this "fixed", and it will never happen

    - Ellsworth is fired (because he's on a short term deal anyway)
    - Carmella is stripped of the MITB briefcase
    - another MITB match held at SummerSlam, and Carmella is not allowed to compete
    Ellsworth is a full time member of the roster. He was short term when he was a tool for Ambrose but he got signed to a proper deal during that feud. Ellsworth is simply doing his job and it would be dumb and unfair to him to fire him over it. There is no fix. What's done is done. There won't be another historic first MitB for the women and having a repeat match isn't going to change anything. Might as well ride the wave and see where it takes you.

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