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  1. #5791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Questions for people who don't like the Fab 5 as a unit: Do you like the Justice League's Big 7? Do you think that it's not the League without the Trinity? Personally, my answer to both of these questions is "No", but I seem to be in the minority there, at least on this forum. Unlike the Big 7, I love the Fab 5, owed primarily to the Devin Grayson run, and while I similarly feel that Titans groups can exist without any members of it, I question why the League gets a pass from many as being classic, iconic and irreplaceable, while the the Fab 5 are deemed boring and stale. Especially since the latter have spent far less time together as a whole than the former.
    I think the inherent problem is that when you put together a team with the original Titans as adults, you end up with a book that's very much Justice League Lite.

  2. #5792
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Questions for people who don't like the Fab 5 as a unit: Do you like the Justice League's Big 7? Do you think that it's not the League without the Trinity? Personally, my answer to both of these questions is "No", but I seem to be in the minority there, at least on this forum. Unlike the Big 7, I love the Fab 5, owed primarily to the Devin Grayson run, and while I similarly feel that Titans groups can exist without any members of it, I question why the League gets a pass from many as being classic, iconic and irreplaceable, while the the Fab 5 are deemed boring and stale. Especially since the latter have spent far less time together as a whole than the former.
    I like both .

  3. #5793
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    But the New Teen Titans did something new. Half the roster was new characters, almos every villian was a new creation, and the old characters had new takes, and it was a success.

    It is crazy to think that writers has been unable to introduce new concepts to this team since the 80's, and the people wonder why they have become so stale.
    This. It's why, while I don't think a complete overhaul of the roster would do anything useful (and could be harmful by driving away a significant portion of the existing fanbase), I wouldn't be against something of a shake-up of the roster — as long as there are enough of the existing members retained to maintain a sense of continuity, and more importantly as long as the revision is done with an eye toward interesting team dynamics and enabling new story possibilities.

    That said, I still maintain that it's not the roster that's the problem; and you could get things working again even with the existing roster just by telling better stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Put Raven and beast boy on the Titans,and put Bunker and red devil on the teen Titans.get cyborg on the Titans,and put Jonn back on the JL team.thata pretty simple


    Oh and the Titans are freaking adults,make them badass heroes,that are awesomely adequate at being...just like every other adult team.

    Yeah those 2 would do it
    The latter has a lot more to do with it than the former. Juggling the rosters around isn't going to do diddly squat if the stories don't improve. Conversely, I don't think the stories can improve without the Titans regaining their mojo — though I think that's more a case of them regaining their mojo as a result of competent storytelling than vice versa.
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  4. #5794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I think the inherent problem is that when you put together a team with the original Titans as adults, you end up with a book that's very much Justice League Lite.
    Except you don't. Like Zero Hunter said, stories with the Fab 5 tend to be character centered while Big 7 stories are based around big action (which I personally find boring.) The Fab 5 all have very unique dynamics with each other, while aside from the obvious partnerships, the Big 7 really don't. And of course there's the fact that the 5 are much different characters than the 7. A well written Dick is very different from Bruce, Roy is very different from Oliver, Garth is very different from Arthur, etc.

    I'm curious which books you're thinking of that give you this opinion. Prior to the current run, there's only been one volume to prominently feature the fab 5 all together as adults. Titans Vol. 1 has a brilliant first half and I'm not the only one who thinks of it as the Titans at their best, it being the book that really perfected the Fab 5's friendship and dynamic, while also having some excellent other additions. The second half, while I like it more than most (Faerber's run at least), was hamstrung by editorial and really shouldn't be used as an example for anything.

  5. #5795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Except you don't. Like Zero Hunter said, stories with the Fab 5 tend to be character centered while Big 7 stories are based around big action (which I personally find boring.) The Fab 5 all have very unique dynamics with each other, while aside from the obvious partnerships, the Big 7 really don't. And of course there's the fact that the 5 are much different characters than the 7. A well written Dick is very different from Bruce, Roy is very different from Oliver, Garth is very different from Arthur, etc.
    I think it depends on the writer, because I've seen writers who can work with the Big 7 and create a fairly solid team dynamic with them, but obviously they're limited to what they can do on a personal level because most of them (or all of them) have their own solo books.

    That's like the bane to any big team book.

  6. #5796
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it depends on the writer, because I've seen writers who can work with the Big 7 and create a fairly solid team dynamic with them, but obviously they're limited to what they can do on a personal level because most of them (or all of them) have their own solo books.

    That's like the bane to any big team book.
    I'm thinking of Morrison's JLA when I read this. Of course, that wasn't entirely the Big 7, as it included Wally and Kyle on the team instead of Barry and Hal. But yeah; the League can be given interesting team dynamics.
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  7. #5797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I'm thinking of Morrison's JLA when I read this. Of course, that wasn't entirely the Big 7, as it included Wally and Kyle on the team instead of Barry and Hal. But yeah; the League can be given interesting team dynamics.
    I was thinking of Morrison too, though I counted Wally and Kyle since, as Flash and GL, they still made up the traditional Big 7 even if they weren't the original Big 7.

  8. #5798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I was thinking of Morrison too, though I counted Wally and Kyle since, as Flash and GL, they still made up the traditional Big 7 even if they weren't the original Big 7.
    I'll grant you guys Morrison to an extent (and I think Wally and Kyle's presence had a lot to do with it), but even then, Morrison just fired out one world ending disaster after another. They were certainly more imaginative than many writers' end of the world plots, but it was still very repetitive and tiring.

  9. #5799
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Questions for people who don't like the Fab 5 as a unit: Do you like the Justice League's Big 7? Do you think that it's not the League without the Trinity? Personally, my answer to both of these questions is "No", but I seem to be in the minority there, at least on this forum. Unlike the Big 7, I love the Fab 5, owed primarily to the Devin Grayson run, and while I similarly feel that Titans groups can exist without any members of it, I question why the League gets a pass from many as being classic, iconic and irreplaceable, while the the Fab 5 are deemed boring and stale. Especially since the latter have spent far less time together as a whole than the former.
    I actually find the JL to be boring as well so they definitely aren't getting a pass from me. There's a reason I find the current JLA book to be more interesting and its down to the characters involved being not the traditional roster. I've also tended to prefer the side characters to the big guns as well.

    And just so you know I don't dislike the Fab Five at all. I just think they have been badly handled for a very long time which is why I would like for them to stop being treated like second raters. I would actually like to see them BE the Justice League and not be forever caught between the "teens" and the "adults". I really wish that we lived in a world where comic book characters in the big two were allowed to age and to pass down their mantles to the next generation. That way we could have a constant stream of new characters taking the place of the old in an organic way that would also lessen the complaints about the bloated nature of things like the Bat Family.
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    Oh my goodness gracious! I've been bamboozled!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    But the New Teen Titans did something new. Half the roster was new characters, almos every villian was a new creation, and the old characters had new takes, and it was a success.

    It is crazy to think that writers has been unable to introduce new concepts to this team since the 80's, and the people wonder why they have become so stale.
    Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.
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    Oh my goodness gracious! I've been bamboozled!

  11. #5801
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    Damn that new Titans issue left a bad taste in my mouth. Props to them for making me feel something for the first time since this series started...I just don't like what I felt. I thought they were past the point where the League could just swoop in and demand that they disband.

  12. #5802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Except you don't. Like Zero Hunter said, stories with the Fab 5 tend to be character centered while Big 7 stories are based around big action (which I personally find boring.) The Fab 5 all have very unique dynamics with each other, while aside from the obvious partnerships, the Big 7 really don't. And of course there's the fact that the 5 are much different characters than the 7. A well written Dick is very different from Bruce, Roy is very different from Oliver, Garth is very different from Arthur, etc.
    The current Titans series has very much been "big action". How often have we seen any of them in their civilian identities and spending time as friends?

    Conceptually, it's all very Justice League. To say otherwise is not seeing the forest for the trees. They're slightly younger counterparts of DC's most popular characters, with a similar MO, in similar stories. But when a writer actually tries to do something to distinguish them from the Justice League, the forums complain. And when they don't, they complain that it's stale.

    It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

  13. #5803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    The current Titans series has very much been "big action". How often have we seen any of them in their civilian identities and spending time as friends?
    Exactly. And do you see me praising this run? No, I'm very much not a fan because it isn't using its characters properly.

  14. #5804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    I'll grant you guys Morrison to an extent (and I think Wally and Kyle's presence had a lot to do with it), but even then, Morrison just fired out one world ending disaster after another. They were certainly more imaginative than many writers' end of the world plots, but it was still very repetitive and tiring.
    Well, that was obviously Morrison's approach to the League, that you take these larger-then-life heroes and then pit them against one world-ending threat after another.

    I can see how it could be repetitive, but I also thought it was a valid approach to the League. But your mileage may vary.

    I also think Mark Waid, Joe Kelly, and what I even read of Gail Simone's short work doing a solid job as well.

  15. #5805
    Astonishing Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    For a book like Titans or even Teen Titans when the focus should be more on character over action you need a certain kind of writer. Someone like a Peter David who really knows how to do character stuff as well as action. You look at any book he has done with a big cast over the years and he kills it on both team books like Young Justice and X-Factor and solo books with big supporting casts like Aquaman and Hulk. That is what the books need. Someone who likes and is good at that kind of storytelling.

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