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  1. #5806
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Questions for people who don't like the Fab 5 as a unit: Do you like the Justice League's Big 7? Do you think that it's not the League without the Trinity? Personally, my answer to both of these questions is "No", but I seem to be in the minority there, at least on this forum. Unlike the Big 7, I love the Fab 5, owed primarily to the Devin Grayson run, and while I similarly feel that Titans groups can exist without any members of it, I question why the League gets a pass from many as being classic, iconic and irreplaceable, while the the Fab 5 are deemed boring and stale. Especially since the latter have spent far less time together as a whole than the former.
    I don't particularly like either the Fab 5 or the Big 7. The reason the Big 7 get a pass over the Fab 5 is because unlike the Titans the JL have a solid purpose and reason for existing. Their purpose is firmly fixed into the core of the DCU and everyone understand why they are there. They are the first line of defense in case something threatens Earth and are DC's marquee team with all their big heroes. It is simple and easy to understand. The Fab 5 have no purpose or reason to be a team other than they were a team when they were younger. They have no fixed goals or plans and they struggle as a concept, especially now that they are adults. When they are adults they just become a less capable JL team that has no clear direction beyond being a containment book for these characters.

    The Fab 5 (and Titans in general) only work if they are teens, imo. They are the "future" of the DCU and are learning to be heroes. That allows the book and team to have a very clear goal and purpose. The franchise is firmly fixed in teens learning to be heroes and that core concept completely breaks when they are now adults but still doing the same thing as when they were teens. It is why the past issue of Titans was so awful because it just reinforces the idea of how irrelevant this team is with them all grown up. If they were teens then that issue would have felt natural, but they aren't and are caught between the generation behind them and the JL who are never going to age or move from their positions. So as a group they have nowhere to develop or grow anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    I love the fab 5 but hate the big 7. I think the difference between the two is that the Titans are first and foremost friends while the Justice League are just people who work with each other. If I had my choice the Justice League would have no more than 4 members of the Big 7 on the team at any one time and no more than 2 of the Trinity at the same time except for major events. The biggest strength of a series like the Titans is you can tell smaller more personal stories with the character while the Justice League has just become all action all the time.
    Characters like Bruce and Clark are probably closer friends than anyone on the Titans. DC very much promotes them that way too, so I don't really agree with the idea that the Titans are all close friends and that is what makes them different from the JL. There have been runs where the JL are written with friendship between them as being very prominent.

  2. #5807
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    The Fab 5 (and Titans in general) only work if they are teens, imo. They are the "future" of the DCU and are learning to be heroes. That allows the book and team to have a very clear goal and purpose. The franchise is firmly fixed in teens learning to be heroes and that core concept completely breaks when they are now adults but still doing the same thing as when they were teens. It is why the past issue of Titans was so awful because it just reinforces the idea of how irrelevant this team is with them all grown up. If they were teens then that issue would have felt natural, but they aren't and are caught between the generation behind them and the JL who are never going to age or move from their positions. So as a group they have nowhere to develop or grow anymore.
    I think you can at least cover that, or at least their status as the next generation of heroes, well enough even with the heroes as adults.

    What was the basis for Devin Grayson's run with the Fab Five?
    Characters like Bruce and Clark are probably closer friends than anyone on the Titans. DC very much promotes them that way too, so I don't really agree with the idea that the Titans are all close friends and that is what makes them different from the JL. There have been runs where the JL are written with friendship between them as being very prominent.
    I'd say Dick and Wally are as close as Bruce and Clark are, and once upon a time Dick was closer to Donna then Bruce probably ever was with Diana.

  3. #5808
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    The current Titans series has very much been "big action". How often have we seen any of them in their civilian identities and spending time as friends?

    Conceptually, it's all very Justice League. To say otherwise is not seeing the forest for the trees. They're slightly younger counterparts of DC's most popular characters, with a similar MO, in similar stories. But when a writer actually tries to do something to distinguish them from the Justice League, the forums complain. And when they don't, they complain that it's stale.

    It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
    The problem is that none of the Fab 5 have a personal life outside of Dick. Wally has been back in the DUC for closing in on two years and he has barely done anything with his personal life since coming back. He hasn't even met his family. The reason for that is that there isn't really a natural fit for this group of characters in the DCU with them as adults and DC has to work around them. The Titans book has basically been a containment book for this team because DC doesn't know what else to do with them and has been spinning its wheels with these uninteresting, drawn out stories until DC figures out what to do.

    The problem is that the team and characters aren't important enough to matter in the bigger rebirth story and are just waiting around for that to end I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think you can at least cover that, or at least their status as the next generation of heroes, well enough even with the heroes as adults.
    I don't think you can if you are still having the team doing the same thing as when they were teens. We all know that they will never take over for the JL so the idea of them being the next generation is never going to happen. You have to move away from that. So you have to basically break the whole team down and rebuild it into something else for them to work, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    What was the basis for Devin Grayson's run with the Fab Five?
    Like a lot of other Titans runs but I think it got back to focusing on personal stuff and melodrama that the NTT had? It has been forever since I read any of it but I wasn't a bit fan of it, but I know the run has its supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd say Dick and Wally are as close as Bruce and Clark are, and once upon a time Dick was closer to Donna then Bruce probably ever was with Diana.
    And now Dick hasn't even had one conversation with Donna since she has been back, lol.

  4. #5809
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    The Titans just do rinky stuff. I was so glad when the 60's passed; I thought I'd seen the last of Ding Dong Daddy and the Mad Mod. I'd rather they sat around the Malt Shoppe with Archie and Jughead, then went out and rescued some cats out of some trees, maybe they help the Riverdale--I mean--Hattons Corner--firemen pull a hose off a truck and stand around in a bucket brigade, Donna goes shopping with Betty and Veronica--who start swooning over Nightwing instead of Archie. It'd be an improvement.

  5. #5810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    What was the basis for Devin Grayson's run with the Fab Five?
    The Fab 5 wanted to train and give experience to newer and younger heroes (Argent, Damage and Jesse Quick) with Vic and Kory also being brought in since the 5 knew they'd sometimes be busy. Wally had the additional motivation of wanting the band back together so they could help keep Dick from becoming more like Batman.


    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    The problem is that none of the Fab 5 have a personal life outside of Dick.
    They all used to, but DC managed to screw all 4 over big time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    And now Dick hasn't even had one conversation with Donna since she has been back.
    These relationships really are what Abnett should have been spending the last year on. We've gotten some good stuff with Roy and Donna and Dick and Wally, but not others like Dick and Roy, Garth and Donna, Roy and Garth etc., all fantastic dynamics.

  6. #5811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I don't particularly like either the Fab 5 or the Big 7. The reason the Big 7 get a pass over the Fab 5 is because unlike the Titans the JL have a solid purpose and reason for existing. Their purpose is firmly fixed into the core of the DCU and everyone understand why they are there. They are the first line of defense in case something threatens Earth and are DC's marquee team with all their big heroes. It is simple and easy to understand. The Fab 5 have no purpose or reason to be a team other than they were a team when they were younger. They have no fixed goals or plans and they struggle as a concept, especially now that they are adults. When they are adults they just become a less capable JL team that has no clear direction beyond being a containment book for these characters.

    The Fab 5 (and Titans in general) only work if they are teens, imo. They are the "future" of the DCU and are learning to be heroes. That allows the book and team to have a very clear goal and purpose. The franchise is firmly fixed in teens learning to be heroes and that core concept completely breaks when they are now adults but still doing the same thing as when they were teens. It is why the past issue of Titans was so awful because it just reinforces the idea of how irrelevant this team is with them all grown up. If they were teens then that issue would have felt natural, but they aren't and are caught between the generation behind them and the JL who are never going to age or move from their positions. So as a group they have nowhere to develop or grow anymore.



    Characters like Bruce and Clark are probably closer friends than anyone on the Titans. DC very much promotes them that way too, so I don't really agree with the idea that the Titans are all close friends and that is what makes them different from the JL. There have been runs where the JL are written with friendship between them as being very prominent.
    Bruce flips flops from ass to friend all the time tho
    somtimes he all buisness, however hes seems to have soften as of late, with selina and damian

    but the JL are not a fun team, their together out of respect of each others power and skill and that together they are formidable to stop just about anything



    Ultimatly their purpose is both to defend the world and be ready to step up if say the JL has failed
    so say in forever evil, if the titans had existed that would have been their moment

  7. #5812
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    The problem is that none of the Fab 5 have a personal life outside of Dick. Wally has been back in the DUC for closing in on two years and he has barely done anything with his personal life since coming back. He hasn't even met his family. The reason for that is that there isn't really a natural fit for this group of characters in the DCU with them as adults and DC has to work around them. The Titans book has basically been a containment book for this team because DC doesn't know what else to do with them and has been spinning its wheels with these uninteresting, drawn out stories until DC figures out what to do.
    I think the Superhero genre in general has been struggling with that to a degree.

    I don't think you can if you are still having the team doing the same thing as when they were teens. We all know that they will never take over for the JL so the idea of them being the next generation is never going to happen. You have to move away from that. So you have to basically break the whole team down and rebuild it into something else for them to work, imo.
    Well, short of them stopping being heroes...

  8. #5813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I think you just nailed the problem here. D.C. is trying to redo what worked decades ago, but times have changed and it has become so stale that it isn't working anymore. I've said it in one of the Champions' thread in the Marvel forum, but while this team is a rip-off of the Titans, more or less, it's a lot more compelling because of what happens to the characters and their growing up. D.C. shouldn't have to have checklist for Titan's spots, and yet, it seems mandatory to have :

    -Batkid (Dick and Damian)
    -Speedster (Wally and Wally)
    -Psychic chick (Omen and Raven)
    -Atlantean (Garth and Jackson)
    -Female powerhouse (Donna and Kory)
    -The sixth Guy (Roy and Beast Boy)

    If D.C. really want to push the Titans, teen or not, they should change the roster. Despite what they think, I don't believe that there is, for instance, need of a Bat-affiliated character in every team for the book to sail, it depends on marketing and a very strong idea to lift the team. I don't have enough knowledge about D.C. C-list and D-list heroes, but I'm pretty sure you could find six of them original enoughs to become new Titans and pitch some strong story for them. Bonus point of diversity and the impact of heroes is actually dealed with in another way that as a token to be fixed on the book's cover.
    A roster change is inevitable at this point. The real question is will it be good and will writers try something new.

  9. #5814
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm not trying to throw shade or anything, because I like both books, but last time I checked the sales isn't Titans and Teen Titans actually selling 10K more then Champions is?
    You're right, of course, but how much is due to the quality of the story and how much is due to the power of the Titan brand in this difference ? There should be a lot more than 10k between CHampions and those books considering the marketing power of (Teen) Titans.

  10. #5815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    You're right, of course, but how much is due to the quality of the story and how much is due to the power of the Titan brand in this difference ? There should be a lot more than 10k between CHampions and those books considering the marketing power of (Teen) Titans.
    99% of the time, I see actual quality as having very little to do with a book's sales. Personally, I think Champions (when it isn't having a tie-in or crossover) is leagues better than both current Titans books.

  11. #5816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    99% of the time, I see actual quality as having very little to do with a book's sales. Personally, I think Champions (when it isn't having a tie-in or crossover) is leagues better than both current Titans books.
    I've heard people bash Champions for 'having an agenda'(whatever that means)but its a solid and underrated series. Unlike the Titans, Champions actually has a purpose and do not let the Avengers put them in timeout.

  12. #5817
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Questions for people who don't like the Fab 5 as a unit: Do you like the Justice League's Big 7? Do you think that it's not the League without the Trinity?
    I think you need a certain number of the classic members or in some cases their legacies for these teams to feel legit.

    For me even something like the 2003 Teen Titans feels (despite having iirc no Fab 5 on the roaster) like Titans, something like the 1996 Titans or even the Line up you had in the end of the Wolfman run (roughly after the Dick Strafire Wedding) not really.

    In case of the League they still need to come of as the team of the best heroes around, something like the JLA Detroit (that needed to run for help to the JSA because they got their asses kick by a few members of Infinity Inc.) doesn't work for me.

  13. #5818
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    The big difference between the Big 7 and the Fab 5 is that when it comes to the Big 7 at least 6 of them are popular and sustaining characters, and when it comes to the Fab 5 only 1, maybe 2, can say that. The Fab 5 aren't actually that fabulous. They are not even the most popular incarnation of the Teen Titans or Titans.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-13-2018 at 08:16 AM.

  14. #5819
    Fantastic Member Midnighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it depends on the writer, because I've seen writers who can work with the Big 7 and create a fairly solid team dynamic with them, but obviously they're limited to what they can do on a personal level because most of them (or all of them) have their own solo books.

    That's like the bane to any big team book.
    And that's one of the many reasons JLI worked so well.
    BRING BACK CONNER KENT!!!

  15. #5820
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    The big difference between the Big 7 and Fab 5 is that the former were created as fully formed adults with identities that they've maintained for their entire fictional existence. Their roles are clearly defined, and what's more, they do not depend on the JL franchise alone to make them the big names that they are. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash(es), the GLs and Aquaman at least all have rich mythologies of their own, and the JL book is based around the hype of seeing all these big names come together for big action movie plots. Just slapping them into a book isn't a guaranteed success (see most of the Rebirth title pre-Priest), but when things aren't working it's an extremely easy fix. Just get a new writer on board to create some fun plots. Character development in that book isn't one of the priorities, as most of their significant relationships are within their own books (Lois Lane and the Daily Planet staff, Lana, Pete, Supergirl, Alfred, Gordon, the Bat Family, Steve, Etta, Hippolyta, Iris, Carol, etc). And even then, the League has strong friendship ties, so I don't buy the argument that the Titans are superior in that regard. The World' Finest friendship is more prolific than any one dynamic in the Titans franchise, and there is Clark/Diana, Diana/Bruce, Hal/Barry, Ray/Carter, Barry/Ralph, Hal/Ollie, etc.

    With the Fab 5, they started out as the teen sidekicks of their more high profile mentors- extensions of the brands. Robin is the only one who had a distinct, contrasting identity from his mentor, whereas the other four are just mini versions of their mentors with similar costumes, powers and abilities. That's fine when they were teens and had the clearly defined roles of being mentored into the the future generation of heroes. The reason NTT worked so well was because they were still known as the League's sidekicks, this time with a bunch of brand new heroes who were not based upon other more famous and self-sustaining characters, and they were being thrown into more adult oriented plots with brand new villains to call their own, and this time most of them didn't suck. Deathstroke, Trigon, Brother Blood and Blackfire vs. Mad Mod and Ding Dong Daddy isn't a contest. None of it had been seen before, making the sidekicks independent heroes with their own lore was fresh and exciting. But eventually the novelty wore off, and once you age them into adults, there isn't anywhere for them to go from there. Wally got lucky and got to be the Flash for a great long while, and Dick will always be a Bat-Character, but the other three don't have anything to distinguish them visually or power-wise from their more famous adult counterparts, and this is a business that in part relies on visual hooks. They can never advance to League status and the clearly defined role that that entails because the Big 7 aren't going anywhere, and there really is no good reason why they should; they never really stopped working, and it's not the fault of them or their fans that the Titans are in a mess, so why should they have to change? Meanwhile, there is not one but two (?!) generations of new sidekicks coming up behind them, so they don't have that anymore. They're not sidekicks, and they're not the League, they are just stuck in a sucky in-between containment area because nobody knows what to do with them, rehashing plot ideas from much better stories. Their history isn't completely intact so they don't even have the same dynamics anymore. There is also the fact that the Fab 5 on their own are not the most popular iteration of the Titans for the vast majority of fans, probably because they are so intrinsically connected to other more famous characters, so basing the franchise around them probably isn't the wisest decision especially with very unremarkable writing backing it up.

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