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  1. #5821
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    A roster change is inevitable at this point. The real question is will it be good and will writers try something new.
    I'm still not ruling out those rumors of a combined team and relaunch around the time of the new show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    You're right, of course, but how much is due to the quality of the story and how much is due to the power of the Titan brand in this difference ? There should be a lot more than 10k between CHampions and those books considering the marketing power of (Teen) Titans.
    Well, Titans is definitely a much more known and popular brand then the Champions are.

    And, yes, quality doesn't always equal sales though conversely quality is also in the eye of the beholder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    99% of the time, I see actual quality as having very little to do with a book's sales. Personally, I think Champions (when it isn't having a tie-in or crossover) is leagues better than both current Titans books.
    I'd put Percy's Teen Titans on par with Waid's Champions, though I think Waid is a much better writer then Percy is.
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I've heard people bash Champions for 'having an agenda'(whatever that means)but its a solid and underrated series. Unlike the Titans, Champions actually has a purpose and do not let the Avengers put them in timeout.
    I think they started that way, but I feel like at this point the Champions' purpose as a group has kind of fallen by the wayside compared to just being a teen Superhero team, like the Titans generally are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The big difference between the Big 7 and the Fab 5 is that when it comes to the Big 7 at least 6 of them are popular and sustaining characters, and when it comes to the Fab 5 only 1, maybe 2, can say that. The Fab 5 aren't actually that fabulous. They are not even the most popular incarnation of the Teen Titans or Titans.
    I'd bump that up to 3, though I know you'd never acknowledge Roy as popular .
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The big difference between the Big 7 and Fab 5 is that the former were created as fully formed adults with identities that they've maintained for their entire fictional existence. Their roles are clearly defined, and what's more, they do not depend on the JL franchise alone to make them the big names that they are. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash(es), the GLs and Aquaman at least all have rich mythologies of their own, and the JL book is based around the hype of seeing all these big names come together for big action movie plots. Just slapping them into a book isn't a guaranteed success (see most of the Rebirth title pre-Priest), but when things aren't working it's an extremely easy fix. Just get a new writer on board to create some fun plots. Character development in that book isn't one of the priorities, as most of their significant relationships are within their own books (Lois Lane and the Daily Planet staff, Lana, Pete, Supergirl, Alfred, Gordon, the Bat Family, Steve, Etta, Hippolyta, Iris, Carol, etc). And even then, the League has strong friendship ties, so I don't buy the argument that the Titans are superior in that regard. The World' Finest friendship is more prolific than any one dynamic in the Titans franchise, and there is Clark/Diana, Diana/Bruce, Hal/Barry, Ray/Carter, Barry/Ralph, Hal/Ollie, etc.
    I would say the Titans as a whole alsoe have pretty iconic friendships, especially if we're reaching past the Fab Five like you're reaching beyond the Big 7.

    But I also think you don't really get those friendships in the actual Justice League book much anymore, which is part of the point.

  2. #5822
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I would say the Titans as a whole alsoe have pretty iconic friendships, especially if we're reaching past the Fab Five like you're reaching beyond the Big 7.

    But I also think you don't really get those friendships in the actual Justice League book much anymore, which is part of the point.
    The Titans do, so I'd say the two franchises are on equal footing when they are both being written well. It's different kinds of friendships born from different circumstances, but they both have them. Unfortunately half the interesting dynamics for the Titans aren't present because the NTT crew are not allowed to interact with their peers for some stupid reason. I confess to only being interested in 3/5 of the Fab 5, so it's already a uphill climb for me to get my attention with those 5 as a unit on their own. But even with them, the stories that made their dynamics interesting aren't canon anymore and the unremarkable writing isn't helping to make up for it. I saw earlier in this thread someone comment that Dick had a more meaningful interaction with evil Future Donna than he has with the real deal in this series so far. Restoring Who is Donna Troy? to continuity wouldn't be an automatic fix, but it couldn't possibly hurt.

  3. #5823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd bump that up to 3, though I know you'd never acknowledge Roy as popular .
    Well let me know when he draws or sustains something and then maybe I’ll think about acknowledging him as popular

  4. #5824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Well let me know when he draws or sustains something and then maybe Iíll think about acknowledging him as popular
    Popularity could also mean established in mainstream media like Arrow or Young Justice. Many so called popular characters struggle to draw or sustain anything. Jack Sparrow was popular for instance but failed to hold the last two Pirayes movies by himself.

  5. #5825
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    Except Roy isn’t Jack Sparrow and has never shown the ability to draw or support a franchise. Just being in things doesn’t make a character popular. DC is learning that with Cyborg. Roy is known to a point, but same could be said about all of the Fab 5. That’s pretty much what they survive on. That is nevertheless not a very good standard for what constitutes as popular.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-13-2018 at 12:24 PM.

  6. #5826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Except Roy isnít Jack Sparrow and has never shown the ability to draw or support a franchise. Just being in things doesnít make a character popular. DC is learning that with Cyborg. Roy is known to a point, but same could be said about all of the Fab 5. Thatís pretty much what they survive on. That is nevertheless not a very good standard for what constitutes as popular.
    I just pointed out how Sparrow couldn't support two movies by himself. And Cyborg ispopular but has trouble supporting a book due to bad writer and editor choices not because people don't like him.

  7. #5827
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    Well bringing up Jack Sparrow makes no sense, and im not even sure what your claiming is even accurate as the last 2 pirate movies still drew a lot of money. And sure, whatever, Cyborg is popular. DC just can’t seem to convince people to spend money on his comic book.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-13-2018 at 12:43 PM.

  8. #5828
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I just pointed out how Sparrow couldn't support two movies by himself. And Cyborg ispopular but has trouble supporting a book due to bad writer and editor choices not because people don't like him.
    Does Sparrow's inability to support two movies by himself mean that people don't like Sparrow, or that the movies weren't very good? I've never seen the last two Pirate movies, but I haven't heard good things about them in general.

    Cyborg is popular and people like him, but they know him as one member of a team. Taken out of that environment, he doesn't have much to go on. That's not necessarily an insult to his character either. He was created as part of an ensemble cast with a specific group, and that's where the strength lies. Even at their peak of popularity, none of the individual X-Men outside of Wolverine could sustain their own franchises either. People still love the characters, they just like the setup they were in. As far of the Titans go, Cyborg has probably contributed more to the franchise than Roy, what with being at the forefront of the most popular series in the comics and being featured in the cartoon, and all the accompanying merchandise that entails.

  9. #5829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Well bringing up Jack Sparrow makes no sense, and im not even sure what your claiming is even accurate as the last 2 pirate movies still drew a lot of money. And sure, whatever, Cyborg is popular. DC just can’t seem to convince people to spend money on his comic book.
    Not as much as the first three.

    Again, being popular doesn't mean people will buy anything with your name on it. Just ask Superman.

  10. #5830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Not as much as the first three.

    Again, being popular doesn't mean people will buy anything with your name on it. Just ask Superman.
    That’s not at all the same thing as what you claimed.

    It’s the only comic with his name on it. But ok, can you show me something else with his name on it that people are buying?
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-13-2018 at 01:01 PM.

  11. #5831
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, being popular doesn't mean people will buy anything with your name on it. Just ask Superman.
    Yet people seem to be far more likely to instantly recognize and buy stuff with his symbol on it, at the very least. It doesn't matter that his last cinematic outings were not well received, you still see people walking around with Superman t-shirts.

    That is considerably more than any of the Titans, even the popular ones, can boast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Itís the only comic with his name on it. But ok, can show me something else with his name on it that people are buying?
    At one point, they may have bought his action figures. But that would be in connections with the Titans property, not as a solo act that can sustain a series by himself.

  12. #5832
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yet people seem to be far more likely to instantly recognize and buy stuff with his symbol on it, at the very least. It doesn't matter that his last cinematic outings were not well received, you still see people walking around with Superman t-shirts.

    That is considerably more than any of the Titans, even the popular ones, can boast.



    At one point, they may have bought his action figures. But that would be in connections with the Titans property, not as a solo act that can sustain a series by himself.
    People will purchase a product if they like it not simply because of whose name is attached to it.

  13. #5833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    That’s not at all the same thing as what you claimed.

    It’s the only comic with his name on it. But ok, can you show me something else with his name on it that people are buying?
    Yeah and it's a badly written comic hence why they aren't buying it. Doesn't mean he isn't popular.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-13-2018 at 01:16 PM.

  14. #5834
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    People will purchase a product if they like it not simply because of whose name is attached to it.
    Wouldn't them liking the product with the symbol all over it indicate they have some prior liking to the name attached to it?

    If not, why not buy a plain t-shirt or lunch box?

  15. #5835
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wouldn't them liking the product with the symbol all over it indicate they have some prior liking to the name attached to it?

    If not, why not buy a plain t-shirt or lunch box?
    If they think the shirt looks good I think that'd be reason enough. Even then a shirt with a Superman symbol isn't quite the same as a Superman movie or tv show that has to put considerably more effort into being appealing.

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