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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEMINUS1 View Post
    I can see how the current Wonder Woman run could border on this Trope. Before the reboot, Wonder Woman's power came from six goddesses (Gaea, Demeter, Athena, Aphrodite, Hestia, and Artemis) and one god (Hermes). Her Amazon training made her one of the worlds most formidable warriors and her iconic equipment was forged by Hephaestus, but empowered by goddesses. Essentially she was a Wonder Woman made by a cast of wonderful women, and three men (Hephaestus, Hermes, and I-Ching).

    Now, her amazing power comes from her father, her training from Ares, and her equipment is all Hephaestus (when was the last time the Lasso was called the Lariat of Hestia?). The Amazons are backwards and deplorable, and there is no trace of her traditional mentor Athena, let alone her goddess Gaea. Also, her "soft" role as an Ambassador has been completely abandoned, while her warrior roots were accentuated. Is the inclusion of more men really the key to receiving critical acclaim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangent Man View Post
    THANK you, Geminus!

    I will admit that the notion of Wonder Woman as "The God of War" holds very subversive possibilities, the likes of which we've not seen since Marston! Diana traditionally fought for Peace--her historic paradox--and her brand of "War" would occur more on the ideological plane. We just need a writer less decompressed and smarter than Azz to maximize that theme.

    Now, more than ever, would be a grand time for Morrison!
    Previously Hephaeustus did forge the lasso, but it was at the behest of Diana's goddess mentors.

    Personally I think Silvanus is right and the whole war goddess thing will go south as a learning experience. My chief concern with that plot is we will have to sit and watch Superman save Wonder Woman from the dark, savage, crazy impulses that she slowly falls prey to.

    And yeah, she will beat him up in the process, but only because he will be "holding back."

    Interesting thing about being goddess of war - I don't think there has been a war in the history of the human race that didn't include female non-combatants being violated.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-14-2014 at 08:55 PM.

  2. #47
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    Valid point, Brett, but in the spirit of Marston, I could see Diana waging a "war" with Love & Truth as her chief armament! At least, that's where a writer not stuck in the 90's would take it...

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Previously Hephaeustus did forge the lasso, but it was at the behest of Diana's goddess mentors.

    Personally I think Silvanus is right and the whole war goddess thing will go south as a learning experience. My chief concern with that plot is we will have to sit and watch Superman save Wonder Woman from the dark, savage, crazy impulses that she slowly falls prey to.

    And yeah, she will beat him up in the process, but only because he will be "holding back."

    Interesting thing about being goddess of war - I don't think there has been a war in the history of the human race that didn't include female non-combatants being violated.
    Er. Thanks --but wait. I don't think I id it will go south. Eliminating war or trying to make it a last resort everywhere may be impossible, but sometimes heroes have to attempt the impossible, and in the process she can accomplish a lot of good, stopping or ending a lot of individual wars if not the global reality of War Itself. And she could keep trying indefinitely.

    As for rape being a part of war, that's presumably one reason she wants to stop or mitigate war. Shes not endorsing it.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 05-15-2014 at 06:12 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Peace is not sentient. You make peace. War could not make peace with himself.

    The paid soldiers fighting wars of corporate greed in Africa and other third world countries know exactly what's it's like. So the different factions in the Middle East. Bizarrely she is talking about teaching people the true nature of war, but the iconic symbol on her hip that epitomises truth is not part of the equation.

    It's also true that history is written by the victors. Every side in a war believes they are in the right and the other side are the ruthless aggressors. Hence Sun Tzu's teaching that war is a moral contest, and is won in the temples before it ever reaches the battlefield.
    The paid soldiers know what war is from their perspective, but they may eed to know with more empathy, compassion, moral courage and honor. So maye they do need a new goddess of war speaking to their minds ànd hearts about more honorable ways of being a soldier.

    But its not primarily soldiers she needs to address : they fight in the wars, but they don't start or fund them. If she cant affect the minds and hearts of the corporate overlords, she 'll need to change the perception of war among the public in the developed world.They can in turn pressure governments to better regulate the corporations and pursue economic development in sane, peaceful ways.

    Wonder Woman va corporate war mongers over Africa? Sounds like a good arc. And why assume the lasso wouldn't be part of it?
    Last edited by Silvanus; 05-15-2014 at 06:44 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Er. Thanks --but wait. I don't think I id it will go south. Eliminating war or trying to make it a last resort everywhere may be impossible, but sometimes heroes have to attempt the impossible, and in the process she can accomplish a lot of good, stopping or ending a lot of individual wars if not the global reality of War Itself. And she could keep trying indefinitely.

    As for rape being a part of war, that's presumably one reason she wants to stop or mitigate war. Shes not endorsing it.
    Makes no difference if she endorses it or not. War without rape is like lightning without thunder. It just doesn't happen. The atrocities in Berlin and Nanking were not perpetrated by sociopaths.

    The only way to stop war is to remove free will or to establish the just sharing of the planets resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    The paid soldiers know what war is from their perspective, but they may eed to know with more empathy, compassion, moral courage and honor. So maye they do need a new goddess of war speaking to their minds ànd hearts about more honorable ways of being a soldier.

    But its not primarily soldiers she needs to address : they fight in the wars, but they don't start or fund them. If she cant affect the minds and hearts of the corporate overlords, she 'll need to change the perception of war among the public in the developed world.They can in turn pressure governments to better regulate the corporations and pursue economic development in sane, peaceful ways.

    Wonder Woman va corporate war mongers over Africa? Sounds like a good arc. And why assume the lasso wouldn't be part of it?
    What your talking about is justice, but that already has a goddess. That used to be Wonder Woman's role, but that isn't in Wars portfolio.

    As to the lasso, based on the last two and a half years there is more reason to expect it to be overlooked than otherwise.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-15-2014 at 07:16 AM.

  6. #51
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    [QUOTE=brettc1;78318]Makes no difference if she endorses it or not. War without rape is like lightning without thunder. It just doesn't happen. The atrocities in Berlin and Nanking were not perpetrated by sociopaths.
    (/QUOTE)

    It would makea great deal of negative difference to me if she were to endorse raps and all the brutal practices assoociated with war. As she says in SM/WW, she is the embodiment of an idea "--and to embody an idea about war is not the same as to embody the reality of war. An idea or ideal can we something to which we aspire. And she wants to spread and actualize her idea of war, thus mitigating some of war:s horrors and making wars more scarce. She's trying to positively subvert or sublimated her role, not simply mirror war as it is. If she plays her role well, she would make it more and more obsolete, and then what would she become? Peace?

    I agree with you about the necessity of economic restribution make war more scarce --that's why I mentioned this necessity in a couple of recent messages upthread as one reason that changing the perception of war in developed countries should be part of the new War's mission of peace : she should motivate us to stop war by spreading wealth.

    Certainly it's true that she's not Justice with a capital J, but she's still just, and naturally, just war would be the kind she seeks to embody. Whether this leads to conflict or friendship with Athena would be interesting to find out. I 've said before that in the long run I 'd love to see her switch thrones with Athena or become Peace. But in the meanttime the apparent paradox of a peaceful god of war should be interesting to explore.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 05-15-2014 at 08:34 PM.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Makes no difference if she endorses it or not. War without rape is like lightning without thunder. It just doesn't happen. The atrocities in Berlin and Nanking were not perpetrated by sociopaths.

    The only way to stop war is to remove free will or to establish the just sharing of the planets resources.
    I agree, but WW cant do that. What she can do is perhaps educate people on what war really is, so that people wont resort to it as easily as before. It's how comics work anyway, you will never see Superman try and end hunger in Africa, or Wayne buy vaccines for the people there. Despite all their powers, the heroes are unable to change the geopolitical setting of our world, which transfers to theirs.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    I agree, but WW cant do that. What she can do is perhaps educate people on what war really is, so that people wont resort to it as easily as before. It's how comics work anyway, you will never see Superman try and end hunger in Africa, or Wayne buy vaccines for the people there. Despite all their powers, the heroes are unable to change the geopolitical setting of our world, which transfers to theirs.
    "When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember it is still an evil."

    That sums up my feelings about war. It may occasionally be necessary, to prevent a greater atrocity. But just because war is sometimes necessary or a lesser evil, doesn't make it a good thing. War is evil.

    Which is why I was always uncomfortable with Marvel making Ares some kind of hero. And I'm not comfortable with Azz doing it either.
    Virtue untested is innocence.

    Always remember, when you choose the lesser of two evils, it is still an evil.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arvandor View Post
    "When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember it is still an evil."

    That sums up my feelings about war. It may occasionally be necessary, to prevent a greater atrocity. But just because war is sometimes necessary or a lesser evil, doesn't make it a good thing. War is evil.

    Which is why I was always uncomfortable with Marvel making Ares some kind of hero. And I'm not comfortable with Azz doing it either.
    I dont think she can stop war. She's the avatar of it, but it exists without her. Like how the sun still exists despite apollo killing himself. So what she can do is try to lessen and prevent it as much as possible.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arvandor View Post
    "When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember it is still an evil."

    That sums up my feelings about war. It may occasionally be necessary, to prevent a greater atrocity. But just because war is sometimes necessary or a lesser evil, doesn't make it a good thing. War is evil.

    Which is why I was always uncomfortable with Marvel making Ares some kind of hero. And I'm not comfortable with Azz doing it either.
    The common rebuttal for this type of statement is "What about the war against the Nazi's? Was that evil."

    This is a faux statement, because the war wasn't against the Nazi's. The war was the Nazi's against others, and didn't start when Germany invaded Poland. It actually began when the Nazi regime began to systematically persecute members of the German population, including but not limited to the Jews.

    So yes, the war was evil because it was perpetrated by evil, killing and torturing the innocent.

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