1. #59521
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Yes they fought for Independence they didn't deserve,
    off of a made up agenda and basing Their whole blame game off an Issue they caused themselves. Tchalla Even said that legions died fighting them. So what Sense does it make and what message does it send when the government says "hey this group rebelled against the crown by event's they caused themselves, then went on to violently take over another tribe and claim the land as their own, then team up with known terrorists of the nation, who were using Wakandan citizens as suicide bombers, Killing the people they claimed to be protecting, then finally stood down when threatened by said government if they CHOSE to stand with the Known terrorist group that was Killing Wakandan citizens. Only to in the end, get everything they wanted and all crimes pardoned and then to be allowed to keep the land they forcefully took and then have the entitled shitty attitude to get snarky with the King".... Again refer to my Doom example. Thats the level of stupidity behind the conclusion of S1
    Whether or not they deserved independence, it's something the DM apparently all wanted and received. Which again demonstrates that their accusations against T'Challa were ultimtely unfounded. They wanted independence and they got it.

    But certainly the Wakandan government could have chosen to violently put down the DM and their rebellion and retake the Jabari land by force. Would have certainly been justified if they did ... that's the obvious risk one takes when they choose to rebell. But I think the counter arguement is frankly that doing so really does no one any good. It continues a conflict with people who at this point simply want to be left alone to do their own thing. Wakanda gains very little if anything by continuing the conflict with the DM and the Jabari. Given the DM continue to act as protectors of Wakanda, even outside the direct authority of the crown, one can argue killing or imprisoning them is more a negative than a positive for Wakanda.

    So yes, I would say going after the DM and imprisoning them would be the fair thing to do. But I don't necessarily agree it's the better thing to do. It just leads to more conflict, and that's not something I believe either side at this point really wants. The DM got their independence, the Wakandan goverment gets to end the hostility without anymore blood shed, and the Wakandan people don't lose any more protectors than they already have. Overall, everyone won there.

  2. #59522
    Mighty Member Cville's Avatar
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    The Dora are independent? They have a representative on the constitutional committee.

  3. #59523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    The Dora are independent? They have a representative on the constitutional committee.
    I think it was independence more than just in a political sense. The DM were previously teenage girls who were taken as brides in training for political purposes. Traditionally they can't date, and they can't even talk to other people besides aside from the king and each other. I think for a lot of the DM (seemingly ALL of them as far as I can tell), breaking away from that and liberating other women to form their own tribe was empowering.

  4. #59524
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think it was independence more than just in a political sense. The DM were previously teenage girls who were taken as brides in training for political purposes. Traditionally they can't date, and they can't even talk to other people besides aside from the king and each other. I think for a lot of the DM (seemingly ALL of them as far as I can tell), breaking away from that and liberating other women to form their own tribe was empowering.
    But Tchalla doesn't force them stay. Why do you keep insisting they were taken when you know they can leave at anytime? lol. You make it sound as if Tchalla snatched them in the night and their families have no idea where they are. lol

  5. #59525
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    But Tchalla doesn't force them stay. Why do you keep insisting they were taken when you know they can leave at anytime? lol. You make it sound as if Tchalla snatched them in the night and their families have no idea where they are. lol
    I'm not suggesting they were kidnapped. But they were teenagers being used as political pawns. They were placed in a position where traditionally at least they weren't allowed to date or to speak to other people. I think it was inevitable that the women rise up against such a system. I do think it's worth noting that it wasn't just the Midnight Angels that left. I think essentially all of them did once the rebellion started. That's a pretty good indicator that a lot weren't happy.

    Which isn't to say that's all on T'Challa. If they didn't like their jobs, they probably should have left sooner. In the least I think everyone found a happy middle ground. They have their own tribe and are doing their own thing.

  6. #59526
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm not suggesting they were kidnapped. But they were teenagers being used as political pawns. They were placed in a position where traditionally at least they weren't allowed to date or to speak to other people. I think it was inevitable that the women rise up against such a system. I do think it's worth noting that it wasn't just the Midnight Angels that left. I think essentially all of them did once the rebellion started. That's a pretty good indicator that a lot weren't happy.

    Which isn't to say that's all on T'Challa. If they didn't like their jobs, they probably should have left sooner. In the least I think everyone found a happy middle ground. They have their own tribe and are doing their own thing.
    What about the supposed legions that fell fighting them(never seen of course lol) These legions had to fight and die because they didn't know how to walk out on a position they didn't like?

    Kinda like not wanting to be in a relationship, but instead of saying that, you start fights to make the relationship untenable.

  7. #59527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    What about the supposed legions that fell fighting them(never seen of course lol) These legions had to fight and die because they didn't know how to walk out on a position they didn't like?

    Kinda like not wanting to be in a relationship, but instead of saying that, you start fights to make the relationship untenable.
    This unfortunately became far more than them simply wanting to quit their jobs. This was a rebellion, and rebellions are almost always violent. They wanted to form their own tribe and do things their way. That wasn't something they were going to be just handed ... it was something they were going to have to fight for.

    And that's probably why T'CHalla just let them go. Deciding to kill or even imprison them likely meant more fighting and at this point, it simply wasn't worth it.

  8. #59528
    Astonishing Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Whether or not they deserved independence, it's something the DM apparently all wanted and received. Which again demonstrates that their accusations against T'Challa were ultimtely unfounded. They wanted independence and they got it.

    But certainly the Wakandan government could have chosen to violently put down the DM and their rebellion and retake the Jabari land by force. Would have certainly been justified if they did ... that's the obvious risk one takes when they choose to rebell. But I think the counter arguement is frankly that doing so really does no one any good. It continues a conflict with people who at this point simply want to be left alone to do their own thing. Wakanda gains very little if anything by continuing the conflict with the DM and the Jabari. Given the DM continue to act as protectors of Wakanda, even outside the direct authority of the crown, one can argue killing or imprisoning them is more a negative than a positive for Wakanda.

    So yes, I would say going after the DM and imprisoning them would be the fair thing to do. But I don't necessarily agree it's the better thing to do. It just leads to more conflict, and that's not something I believe either side at this point really wants. The DM got their independence, the Wakandan goverment gets to end the hostility without anymore blood shed, and the Wakandan people don't lose any more protectors than they already have. Overall, everyone won there.
    So you think its a good idea to have "Protectors of Wakanda" who caused legions to die and set off a chain of events because they first:

    Stupidly decided they could handle all of Wakanda's problems without alerting the royal family and ended up killing a a high ranking Tribesmen, after which blamed the government for not knowing, even though the information was given to the and they WILLINGLY chose not to share the information or go through any of the channels to report the issue. Some girl literally just walked up into their compound so security is really tight. Second:

    They go out and kill off the Jabari tribe, there has been in scuffles int he past but that was put to rest They straight up kill the jabari tribe and take their land as their own. They side with KNOWN TERRORISTS OF WAKANDA, Who aren't even Wakandan themselves, So terrorist of a neighboring country, WHO KILL WAKANDAN CITIZENS THE MA CLAIM TO BE PROTECTING. They side with a invading force that is killing their people and slapping bombs to their chests to blow them up and as many other people as they can...

    Third:

    Again they claim they are Protectors of Wakanda, But when their buddies who are (Surprise Surprise) Raping women they decide maybe they need to rethink their alliance.. forget killing the innocents, in their mind fuck em, but the overly used Rape? Nah thats the wake up call, so they decide to Take Shuri up on her offer to not be destroyed and not work with Tetu and Co. So they stand down, Let the Royal family destroy Tetu and his goons while Contributing NOTHING at all to the defeat of them, Even though they were supposed to be angry with them because they were raping women, but they do nothing at all.. Then when all is said and done, they have the gall to have an entitled attitude towards T'Challa that they deserve some "Independence" (Though its already been established that the DM occupation was changed to Body guards of the royal family, who could come and go as they pleased as well as willingly join the order as it was a highly respected position) and he needs to let them go.

    T'Challa basically says, in Coatesspeak "Hurr Dur, I know you guys killed legions (apparently) and caused a rebellion... But the royal family and monarch is at fault (remember again the DM did not go through the proper channels at all) and we need to change and give you your independence as well as allowing you to keep the land you forcefully took from the jabari tribe while also wiping them out almost completely, and though you sided with known terrorists from a invading county, we will let that slide and allow you to be protectors of Wakanda"...? Do you see the flaw in that? Do you see how stupid that is? After all that happens in S2 when the royal family comes to their rescue, they act all "We arent ready to take orders from you" entitled attitude when they are being saved by T'Challa... Yea.. Totally the group you want protecting the people of Wakanda... Great idea

  9. #59529
    Astonishing Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    This unfortunately became far more than them simply wanting to quit their jobs. This was a rebellion, and rebellions are almost always violent. They wanted to form their own tribe and do things their way. That wasn't something they were going to be just handed ... it was something they were going to have to fight for.

    And that's probably why T'CHalla just let them go. Deciding to kill or even imprison them likely meant more fighting and at this point, it simply wasn't worth it.

    Also this is a pretty big assumption that they would have to "Fight" for independence, They didn't try, The withheld information, did not go through proper channels and killed a governing tribal leader, then blame the system (They are apart of the system too by the way) and then started a rebellion.. Its not as though they asked for independance and then were told they couldn't.. try again

  10. #59530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    So you think its a good idea to have "Protectors of Wakanda" who caused legions to die and set off a chain of events because they first:

    Stupidly decided they could handle all of Wakanda's problems without alerting the royal family and ended up killing a a high ranking Tribesmen, after which blamed the government for not knowing, even though the information was given to the and they WILLINGLY chose not to share the information or go through any of the channels to report the issue. Some girl literally just walked up into their compound so security is really tight. Second:

    They go out and kill off the Jabari tribe, there has been in scuffles int he past but that was put to rest They straight up kill the jabari tribe and take their land as their own. They side with KNOWN TERRORISTS OF WAKANDA, Who aren't even Wakandan themselves, So terrorist of a neighboring country, WHO KILL WAKANDAN CITIZENS THE MA CLAIM TO BE PROTECTING. They side with a invading force that is killing their people and slapping bombs to their chests to blow them up and as many other people as they can...

    Third:

    Again they claim they are Protectors of Wakanda, But when their buddies who are (Surprise Surprise) Raping women they decide maybe they need to rethink their alliance.. forget killing the innocents, in their mind fuck em, but the overly used Rape? Nah thats the wake up call, so they decide to Take Shuri up on her offer to not be destroyed and not work with Tetu and Co. So they stand down, Let the Royal family destroy Tetu and his goons while Contributing NOTHING at all to the defeat of them, Even though they were supposed to be angry with them because they were raping women, but they do nothing at all.. Then when all is said and done, they have the gall to have an entitled attitude towards T'Challa that they deserve some "Independence" (Though its already been established that the DM occupation was changed to Body guards of the royal family, who could come and go as they pleased as well as willingly join the order as it was a highly respected position) and he needs to let them go.

    T'Challa basically says, in Coatesspeak "Hurr Dur, I know you guys killed legions (apparently) and caused a rebellion... But the royal family and monarch is at fault (remember again the DM did not go through the proper channels at all) and we need to change and give you your independence as well as allowing you to keep the land you forcefully took from the jabari tribe while also wiping them out almost completely, and though you sided with known terrorists from a invading county, we will let that slide and allow you to be protectors of Wakanda"...? Do you see the flaw in that? Do you see how stupid that is? After all that happens in S2 when the royal family comes to their rescue, they act all "We arent ready to take orders from you" entitled attitude when they are being saved by T'Challa... Yea.. Totally the group you want protecting the people of Wakanda... Great idea
    I think deciding to imprison or kill the Doras would have been understandable and fair.

    But again, the flip side being that it would result in more Wakandan on Wakandan blood shed. The DM simply want to be left alone, and they are still acting as protectors of Wakanda. So objectively speaking more good comes out of allowing them their independence than it would going to war with them.

    If there's a downside to T'CHalla decision we haven't seen it yet... though obviously the story is still on going so we'll see.

  11. #59531
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Also this is a pretty big assumption that they would have to "Fight" for independence, They didn't try, The withheld information, did not go through proper channels and killed a governing tribal leader, then blame the system (They are apart of the system too by the way) and then started a rebellion.. Its not as though they asked for independance and then were told they couldn't.. try again
    THe MA were wanted criminals with one of them already sentenced to death. By choosing to support the MA, the Doras as a whole essentially became criminals. It's no assumption at all to assume they were going to have to fight for their freedom at that point. The Wakandan government was going to go after them, understandably so.

  12. #59532
    Astonishing Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think deciding to imprison or kill the Doras would have been understandable and fair.

    But again, the flip side being that it would result in more Wakandan on Wakandan blood shed. The DM simply want to be left alone, and they are still acting as protectors of Wakanda. So objectively speaking more good comes out of allowing them their independence than it would going to war with them.

    If there's a downside to T'CHalla decision we haven't seen it yet... though obviously the story is still on going so we'll see.
    As a nation it makes wakanda look weak. And no it would of been more deserving to destroy them. They aren't protectors of Wakanda. They killed legions and sided with terrorists of Wakanda. Please tell me how that is the where this definition of protector is

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    THe MA were wanted criminals with one of them already sentenced to death. By choosing to support the MA, the Doras as a whole essentially became criminals. It's no assumption at all to assume they were going to have to fight for their freedom at that point. The Wakandan government was going to go after them, understandably so.
    Also no because your ignoring what i said. Your claiming they had to fight for their freedom. They never once asked to break free and start their own group separate of the royal family but still there for the people. Here's literally what happened. Girl waltz into their compound tells them of the rape happening in her village, and instead of going through the proper channels they say "T'Challa is toobusy to deal with this, we will handle this ourselves" However, they send a lone Dora, who clearly isn't in a state of mind to be handling a situation like that alone, go into the cheiftains house and kill him outright, even though trained to handle such a opponent with ease (Doras fought against Thanos army so you know they are formidable) and then after getting imprisoned, blames the system because she broke the law and then starts claiming the government doesn't care and is neglecting things (while failing to mention they were the cause of that chain of events).

    So tell me where in all of that, not speculation, not well maybe this is why, Give me on panel showings where they tried to ask for their freedom and were told no and were forced to fight for it. Because what i saw was a cringey Anakin & Padme chemistry followed by travelling to new york for some cliche dialogue and cliche guys trying to pick them up scene. Followed by them with holding information

  13. #59533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    As a nation it makes wakanda look weak. And no it would of been more deserving to destroy them. They aren't protectors of Wakanda. They killed legions and sided with terrorists of Wakanda. Please tell me how that is the where this definition of protector is



    Also no because your ignoring what i said. Your claiming they had to fight for their freedom. They never once asked to break free and start their own group separate of the royal family but still there for the people. Here's literally what happened. Girl waltz into their compound tells them of the rape happening in her village, and instead of going through the proper channels they say "T'Challa is toobusy to deal with this, we will handle this ourselves" However, they send a lone Dora, who clearly isn't in a state of mind to be handling a situation like that alone, go into the cheiftains house and kill him outright, even though trained to handle such a opponent with ease (Doras fought against Thanos army so you know they are formidable) and then after getting imprisoned, blames the system because she broke the law and then starts claiming the government doesn't care and is neglecting things (while failing to mention they were the cause of that chain of events).

    So tell me where in all of that, not speculation, not well maybe this is why, Give me on panel showings where they tried to ask for their freedom and were told no and were forced to fight for it. Because what i saw was a cringey Anakin & Padme chemistry followed by travelling to new york for some cliche dialogue and cliche guys trying to pick them up scene. Followed by them with holding information
    As far as I can tell, in the little we've seen of the MA since the conflict ended they're protecting Wakanda from monsters. So at this point I think it's fair to label them protectors of Wakanda. Again, the story is still on-going so that may change... but at this point the DM and T'Challa seem to still want the same thing even if there are still some bad feelings there, on their part at least. If you're right and the MA are still a threat who will turn on Wakanda, then T'Challa will have ended up being wrong and he'll have to deal with that. But if T'Challa is right and they continue to protect Wakanda as we're seeing now, then they'll have proven themselves an asset and that will justify the decision he's made. We'll see.

    As far as their freedom goes... once the Doras choose to support the MA, who are wanted criminals at that point with at least one being sentenced to death, the DM are themselves criminals. That was the point of no return where this became more than just them quiting their jobs... it became a rebellion. And it's not until after the conflict with the People is resolved that the DM are given a pass for their actions. Prior to that, they were criminals and traitors... it was perfectly understandable that the government would go after them (and they did), and the DM needed to fight for their freedom. THat's how it works.

    So if you want a break down of the timeline, Aneka unlawfully murders a rapist. Ayo pleads for Aneka's freedom but is denied. Ayo frees Aneka and the rest of the DM end up supporting the MA, effectively becoming criminals in the process. At that point there's no asking for their freedom... Ayo tried that and was already denied by Ramonda (understandably so given the circumstances). To his credit T'CHalla was willing to give them their freedom later, which is where we are now.

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    I swear if there's one positive thing I'm looking forward to in the upcoming issue is Klaw getting a good showing since going by solicitations he's really going to reclaim his spot as a major threat. And with all these descriptions of Ayo and Aneka needing help, I'm really hoping that Klaw whoops their asses soundly. It's way past time for the Midnight Angels bratty asses to be humbled oh and if Klaw could kill Changamires boring ass, that would be great as well.

    But true to character for the Chokesverse, Wakanda is in danger again. And T'Challa is going to be needing help again. For fucks sake, is it really that hard for Chokes to have T'Challa do one thing on his own?! Just one?! No hand holding by Shuri, a superpowered uber driver (Eden), no crew, no mutants, no midnight brats, and no half assed speech by Boreamire. Just one defined feat that has him doing shit on his own? Oh no, because Chokes can't be bothered to write a competent Black male character. But then again, what else would you expect from a guy that doesn't believe in Afro futurism, relies on tired ass stereotypes to tell his miserable excuses for stories, and can't be bothered to elevate this character and his mythos all because he and his cronies are nothing but opportunistic little shits who want to push agendas?

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    Putting the Doras over the Jabari lands is a win for TChalla they both were giving him headaches, so they now they will give each other headaches

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