1. #35551
    Veteran Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I feel the same way. After reading #4, it doesn't feel like the end of a story, it feels like "Ok we're done with all the set up now." Having said that, I don't know if this would be a good intro to someone wanting to learn about why BP as a character is cool. A more compressed story might have been better.

    Having said that, I am interested to seeing how Coates will handle BP interacting with other heroes of color.
    I think setup is the accurate description. Part of what people are complaining about - the diminished role of T'Challa (although he still is the character who appears the most, fwiw), is because the groundwork is being laid through everything else.

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    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumble View Post
    Exactly. The current title of the spin off is "Black Panther: World of Wakanda" with T'Challa dead center in the cover art. It's not "Midnight Angels" or "Aneka, Ayo and Zenzi"

    It's quite clear what character and name they are using to sell/promote this book. They'll use said name/character to get people to read about the other characters, which is essentially what these first 4 issues were anyway. We don't have to pretend that its something else.
    Some people just love to apply crazy spin doe. LOL!
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumble View Post
    "Anyway, hope you'll stick around. Seriously. it's big, long, epic tale. It WILL pay off. Guaranteed. Don't want to ruin that by rushing and effing up the quality of the book. Stick with us. We won't let you down. T'Challa ain't never lied." -Coates 7/3/16


    Hmmmm... is it oochie wally or is it one mic?
    HAHA at the Jay-Z line , but he could be referring to the kind of story he's telling ie long kinda slow. I still can't see the full interview so I am not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Dwayne McDuffie wrote the married couple exceedingly well but I'm sick and tired of some people downplaying Reginald Hudlin's writing of T'Challa and Ororo as a married couple when there's ZERO evidence of him having written them in a substandard manner.
    I just think the overall Storm wasn't the best part of his run, he did cool things with her Storm taking on Clor comes to mind as does that little jaunt with the Skruls but the kind of feats from Storm that some people were expecting were not shown. That and it seemed kind of rushed, I think it would have gone over better with alot of long term fans if she had been in the book from the start kind of like how she was featured in the animated series. Granted alot of that has to do with editorial I'm sure Hudlin wanted to do more but the X-Office(let's not talk about em). Marketing has to do with it also I feel like the book should have been renamed BP&Storm or something and it could have featured alot more A & X villians and supporting casts. The only time that came close to happening was when Yost wrote that Storm mini; World's Apart.

    Hudlin needs to get more props for opening up the market he was the one who was able to get EJD on the BP/Storm mini not sure how well it sold but that was a start in the right direction of where we are at now as far as awareness and more fans paying attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by KidStranglehold View Post
    And this is why I loved about Hudlin's run. He was dedicated in building upon. I still have no clue why some disliked his run so much. To me I thought it was because he had written a unapologetic black monarch.
    To be fair Hudlin did do alot or retconning as well i.e Shuri, the nation always being advanced(prior to that T'Challa was the sole reason why Wakanda had so much tech), the nature of the first Captain America/BP fight(originally it was a draw) and dropping of alot of the Priest storylines. I think the thing that turned alot of older fans off at first is how different it was from Priest take on the character. Hudlin portrayed everything straight up if anything it's more akin to spiritual successor to Kirby's run if anything(the golden frogs and how they are used are proof). BP the adventurer/world traveler/ambassador is something that is pretty cool. I tend not think of any of the BP writers as worse than the others because they all bring something different and unique to the table and what they have done for the character as for as stories, cast, and popularity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumble View Post
    Exactly. The current title of the spin off is "Black Panther: World of Wakanda" with T'Challa dead center in the cover art. It's not "Midnight Angels" or "Aneka, Ayo and Zenzi"

    It's quite clear what character and name they are using to sell/promote this book. They'll use said name/character to get people to read about the other characters, which is essentially what these first 4 issues were anyway. We don't have to pretend that its something else.
    His characters, his franchise it's no different than the countless number of X-Men, Avengers or Batman related titles. The characters are only there because of BP and his world.

  4. #35554
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    To me that's a question mark.

    To push Shuri to the forefront, T'Challa had to be marginalized to a degree in his own book by having him put in a coma and eventually stripped of his powers and title. To push Sam to the forefront in Captain America Steve had to be aged and depowered. Stark will seemingly be off the grid for a bit while 2 other Iron Men are taking the reigns.

    The usual formula is for the main character to sacrifice some panel time to someone else if that someone else is trying to get pushed to the forefront. That's the usual formula. In this case it was LESS extreme than how Hudlin handled Shuri's push... but it had the same effect.

    Bottom line is we'll never know if the Midnight Angels would have gotten their own book had Coates not given them the level of push he gave them. But we DO know that the would get their own book from the push he gave them because they did in fact get it. So as I said, how he handled it worked out for the best.
    That's a TOTALLY different situation, that book was specifically marketed as being about a NEW Black Panther. It was marketed that way months before the first issue shipped. Replacement heroes are a totally different thing than the main character of a book being marginalized for the first three issues to build up the supporting cast. None of those situations you mentioned marginalized the lead of the book in the first 4 issues in favor of building and developing the supporting cast.

    A more apt comparison to this book would be Iron Man 2.0. That was supposed to be a War Machine solo book, it was promoted as a War Machine solo book, but anybody that read that comic will tell you that Rhodey was a supporting character in that series. Nick Spencer spent more time developing his new villain and having other characters talk at/at Rhodey than actually actually developing Rhodey as a character. Rhodey never moved the story along, he was just a passenger along for the ride. That's how Coates handling of Black Panther has been so far.

    You don't have to marginalize the lead of a book to build up the supporting cast, there are countless examples of this over the years at both DC and Marvel. Hell, the current Captain America Sam Wilson book is a perfect example of this. Sam is without a doubt the lead of that book, but Spencer has also been able to give Sam a great supporting cast made up of new and old characters that have been fleshed out more than they were in recent years.

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    Another thing about Hudlin's run is that it didn't focus on Wakanda alot at least to the level of degree that prior runs had, alot of T'Challas vilains were MIA save Killmonger that and it tied into crossovers alot granted in some cases it had to I just wish it could have involved more BPs world

    And I don't know if I would call BP a supporting character he's definitely part of a greater ensemble of characters now but he's still the forefront and his actions drive the story. Issue 1 was BP, Issue 2 MA and Issue 3 Tetu & Zenzi the latter two or bent on taken out the former so how can he not drive the story?
    Last edited by C_haos; 07-30-2016 at 01:19 PM.

  6. #35556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    That's a TOTALLY different situation, that book was specifically marketed as being about a NEW Black Panther. It was marketed that way months before the first issue shipped. Replacement heroes are a totally different thing than the main character of a book being marginalized for the first three issues to build up the supporting cast. None of those situations you mentioned marginalized the lead of the book in the first 4 issues in favor of building and developing the supporting cast.

    A more apt comparison to this book would be Iron Man 2.0. That was supposed to be a War Machine solo book, it was promoted as a War Machine solo book, but anybody that read that comic will tell you that Rhodey was a supporting character in that series. Nick Spencer spent more time developing his new villain and having other characters talk at/at Rhodey than actually actually developing Rhodey as a character. Rhodey never moved the story along, he was just a passenger along for the ride. That's how Coates handling of Black Panther has been so far.

    You don't have to marginalize the lead of a book to build up the supporting cast, there are countless examples of this over the years at both DC and Marvel. Hell, the current Captain America Sam Wilson book is a perfect example of this. Sam is without a doubt the lead of that book, but Spencer has also been able to give Sam a great supporting cast made up of new and old characters that have been fleshed out more than they were in recent years.
    But Sam got that book by marginalizing Steve.

    And yeah D-Msn may be getting more,development but not to the degree that he carrying his own book like the MA or like Sam did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C_haos View Post
    Another thing about Hudlin's run is that it didn't focus on Wakanda alot at least to the level of degree that prior runs had, alot of T'Challas vilains were MIA save Killmonger that and it tied into crossovers alot granted in some cases it had to I just wish it could have involved more BPs world
    One of the things Hudlin wanted to do was make sure T'Challa was firmly part of the wider Marvel universe. Priest's run felt like it was going on in it's own pocket universe at times. Hudlin brought in the same guest characters, but we also saw Panther popping up a bit more outside of his own comic than he did during Priest's run.

    Really think about it, the first arc was "Who is the Black Panther" and then after that he's going out into the rest of the world. He goes to Niganda in an attempt to stabilize things, he then goes to the U.S. to find a bride, then after he gets married he and Ororo go on a diplomatic tour, then they go on a cross dimesional space faring adventure with Ben and Johnny, and after that they return home with the "Back to Africa" story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    One of the things Hudlin wanted to do was make sure T'Challa was firmly part of the wider Marvel universe. Priest's run felt like it was going on in it's own pocket universe at times. Hudlin brought in the same guest characters, but we also saw Panther popping up a bit more outside of his own comic than he did during Priest's run.

    Really think about it, the first arc was "Who is the Black Panther" and then after that he's going out into the rest of the world. He goes to Niganda in an attempt to stabilize things, he then goes to the U.S. to find a bride, then after he gets married he and Ororo go on a diplomatic tour, then they go on a cross dimesional space faring adventure with Ben and Johnny, and after that they return home with the "Back to Africa" story.
    Yeah, but I just feel like he could have accomplished the same thing without missing out on Wakanda or it's supporting characters. I would have loved for QDJ to meet Storm or for Hunter or Achebe to try and take advantage of BP being MIA, and heck I don't even think the Dora in his run were named misktake me if I am wrong?

    But yeah Hudlin's run his firmly in the MU we got some cool suff out of it too. Like Azzari vs Namor, T'Challa vs Karnak and who can forget the crew in NO vs vampires... Thrice blessed armor and ebony blade indeed

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    But Sam got that book by marginalizing Steve.
    Steve was not marginalized IN HIS OWN BOOK. At no point did Steve feel like a supporting character IN HIS OWN BOOK. After 25 issues (the first dozen or so Sam didn't even appear in) Steve's book ended and they relaunched with Sam as the lead.

    4 issues into Black Panther T'Challa has been a supporting character IN HIS OWN BOOK. That's not the same as Steve getting 25 issues then being pushed aside to give Sam as Cap a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And yeah D-Msn may be getting more,development but not to the degree that he carrying his own book like the MA or like Sam did.
    D-Man? No, specifically because he's received the least amount of attention or development in that book. But Misty and Joaquin have absolutely been developed enough that you could do a book about those two...Hell you could do a series about those two AND D-man being Team Cap.

    It's not like Marvel looked at Coates work with the Dora Milaje and said "Oh wow we gotta make a new title starring these two because Coates developed them so well". Coates approached THEM with the idea of doing a satellite series and bringing in a black female author to handle it. Mind you this was later in the development of his series, because he had originally intended to kill the Dora's in issue #4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C_haos View Post
    Yeah, but I just feel like he could have accomplished the same thing without missing out on Wakanda or it's supporting characters. I would have loved for QDJ to meet Storm or for Hunter or Achebe to try and take advantage of BP being MIA, and heck I don't even think the Dora in his run were named misktake me if I am wrong?

    But yeah Hudlin's run his firmly in the MU we got some cool suff out of it too. Like Azzari vs Namor, T'Challa vs Karnak and who can forget the crew in NO vs vampires... Thrice blessed armor and ebony blade indeed
    I think given what Hudlin had T'Challa doing during his run the supporting cast of Wakandans was fine. S'Yan was a consistent presence throughout the film as was Shuri. The first and Last arcs of Hudlin's run are firmly set in Wakanda, it doesn't explore the politics of the nation (more so outside threats) but they're firmly Wakandan set stories.

  11. #35561
    Epic Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    Steve was not marginalized IN HIS OWN BOOK. At no point did Steve feel like a supporting character IN HIS OWN BOOK. After 25 issues (the first dozen or so Sam didn't even appear in) Steve's book ended and they relaunched with Sam as the lead.

    4 issues into Black Panther T'Challa has been a supporting character IN HIS OWN BOOK. That's not the same as Steve getting 25 issues then being pushed aside to give Sam as Cap a shot.



    D-Man? No, specifically because he's received the least amount of attention or development in that book. But Misty and Joaquin have absolutely been developed enough that you could do a book about those two...Hell you could do a series about those two AND D-man being Team Cap.

    It's not like Marvel looked at Coates work with the Dora Milaje and said "Oh wow we gotta make a new title starring these two because Coates developed them so well". Coates approached THEM with the idea of doing a satellite series and bringing in a black female author to handle it. Mind you this was later in the development of his series, because he had originally intended to kill the Dora's in issue #4.
    Coates needed to develop the MA to the degree that marvel felt they could carry the book. And these were characters who most people have never heard of. Bottom line is they way he did it got it done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Coates needed to develop the MA to the degree that marvel felt they could carry the book. And these were characters who most people have never heard of. Bottom line is they way he did it got it done.
    And I'll say again, for the umpteenth time, he could have developed them without T'Challa being marginalized in his own book.

    I'm not saying his way wasn't effective at developing their characters, i'm saying he could have been just as effective without marginalizing T'Challa in his own damn book. You argued otherwise by making some rather weak comparisons and ignoring decades of instances where supporting characters were developed without marginalizing the lead and it resulting in a spin off title for said supporting character.

    If you LIKE the way Coates went about doing things that's fine. But don't act as if that was the ONLY way it could have been done and that he HAD to push T'Challa in the background and make him a supporting character in his own book to achieve that goal.
    Last edited by Kasper Cole; 07-30-2016 at 02:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C_haos View Post
    Hudlin needs to get more props for opening up the market he was the one who was able to get EJD on the BP/Storm mini not sure how well it sold but that was a start in the right direction of where we are at now as far as awareness and more fans paying attention.
    Hudlin def deserves credit for that. So many BP fans today were introduced to BP via the Hudlin run. From there, they went backwards to the Priest run. Priest even said that himself in the recent interview at SDCC, in fact.

    If there is one positive that can come from the Coates run, regardless of various fan opinion, its that the fan base gets expanded and those fans will go backwards to previous runs. I wouldn't be surprised if that is happening right this moment.

    To be fair Hudlin did do alot or retconning as well i.e Shuri, the nation always being advanced(prior to that T'Challa was the sole reason why Wakanda had so much tech), the nature of the first Captain America/BP fight(originally it was a draw) and dropping of alot of the Priest storylines. I think the thing that turned alot of older fans off at first is how different it was from Priest take on the character. Hudlin portrayed everything straight up if anything it's more akin to spiritual successor to Kirby's run if anything(the golden frogs and how they are used are proof). BP the adventurer/world traveler/ambassador is something that is pretty cool. I tend not think of any of the BP writers as worse than the others because they all bring something different and unique to the table and what they have done for the character as for as stories, cast, and popularity.
    The Hudlin run got a bunch of hate from many sides; those that didn't like his writing, racists, people who felt that BP was "winning" too much, people who felt T'Challa became "too black" (lol), the changes he made, the marriage (boy, that was a big one), and so on. That said, I honestly think that the bold was a notable reason why the Hudlin run got a lot of hate. A lot readers back then seemed to have wanted something akin to the Priest run. Hudlin went a different direction all together and even made the aforementioned changes to the BP mythos (being unconquered and advanced throughout its history, Shuri, the eventual BP/Storm marriage, etc).

    I have honestly lost count on the amount of debates I've had with casual readers and many BP fans who really disliked or hated the changes Hudlin made (or the Hudlin run in general), even though the start of his run was originally out of continuity. Got many e-battle scars due to those debates lol.

    Hudlin's run was easily the most controversial BP run in the character's publication history. That said, Coates' run appears to be giving it a run for its money on that department, lol.
    Last edited by Realdealholy; 07-30-2016 at 02:34 PM.

  14. #35564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    I think given what Hudlin had T'Challa doing during his run the supporting cast of Wakandans was fine. S'Yan was a consistent presence throughout the film as was Shuri. The first and Last arcs of Hudlin's run are firmly set in Wakanda, it doesn't explore the politics of the nation (more so outside threats) but they're firmly Wakandan set stories.
    You don't necessarily have to focus on the politics of the country to focus on those characters. Maybe have Hunter/Killmonger/M'Baku working with the Pro-Re side in CW(for there on ins) gives T'Challa extra motivation and improves the standing of his villains in the MU because you see them taking out other heros and not getting chumped . Or feature Princess Zanda has a stow-away on the FF adventure, Achebe could have been an additional villain in the Wild Kingdom arc or have Shuri and QDJ link up for a bit while she visted America. More use of Ross.. Little stuff like that, not to take away from Hudlin and the stuff he did , but those little links of continuation would have made all the difference to fans who had been following the character for years.

    That's one aspect of BP that must change IMO I need to see his villains appear in other book and taken seriously by other writers. For too long M'Baku been taken like a joke, Killmonger has been used like a pawn and everyone else just hasn't been used forget that I want them to be given the same level of respect as other villains and I don't want them chumped out.BP is quickly on his way to A List character his villains need to catch up ASAP. Another thing is I hope future BP writers use more of these classic rouges M'Baku,Killmonger,Hunter, Achebe and Princess Zanda or that but they don't have signature stories because they haven't been used that often. Coates gets a break for season one but for season two and WoW I need to see the classics appearing ASAP

  15. #35565
    Epic Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    And I'll say again, for the umpteenth time, he could have developed them without T'Challa being marginalized in his own book.

    I'm not saying his way wasn't effective at developing their characters, i'm saying he could have been just as effective without marginalizing T'Challa in his own damn book. You argued otherwise by making some rather weak comparisons and ignoring decades of instances where supporting characters were developed without marginalizing the lead and it resulting in a spin off title for said supporting character.

    If you LIKE the way Coates went about doing things that's fine. But don't act as if that was the ONLY way it could have been done and that he HAD to push T'Challa in the background and make him a supporting character in his own book to achieve that goal.
    Have there been other instances where supporting characters were developed without the main character losing some spotlight? Sure. Have there been instances where those supporting characters got developed to the degree they were able to carry their own title after 4 issues? I can't recall any off the top of my head.

    To me it just makes sense that if you're going to heavily invest in other characters, the main character might lose some panel time in the process. In 20 something pages if you're investing more pages in character X, character Y will potentially get less if they're not sharing panels in the same place at the same time. The extra panel time invested has to come from somewhere.

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