1. #18826
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    That is the case for characters who are secure in their position, like a Spider-man, Batman or a Superman. Creators can build on those characters because they aren't in danger of having their foundation erased. A character like a Nightwing or characters of his level are in a state of flux. Creators are constantly trying to rebuild the character or reboots are wiping the slate clean. So very rarely do things stick to the character.
    But every creator, whether they be on an A-list, B-List, or C-List character generally tries to build similar foundations for the title their on even if they're book will only last for 6-16 issues.

    Nightwing is probably in a better position then most characters because he can actually hold a solo book, so it's easier to build or maintain a foundation unless future writers just completely do their own thing once they take over. But that happens even to more secure A-list characters.

    Also arcs today rarely are "one-offs". They tend to last for multiple issues, and you aren't really just throwing out a villain from a different franchise for an issue or two, but would be building an entire arc around that villain and story. Though I suppose it is also a difference in philosophy. DC tends to keep its properties very segmented while Marvel feels a lot more fluid where its characters dip in and out of franchises and move around the MCU fighting villains and problems all over the place.
    I'm not the biggest fan of that fluidity myself, but to each their own.

  2. #18827
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I've said this before but I don't think it is possible to build a rogues gallery for a character in modern comics.
    I dont completely disagree with you, as it is much harder, sometimes maybe even impossible, to build a rogues gallery now. Nor am I trying to change your mind. But I think (this is just my opinion) it depends on the IP's staying power and what passes for editorial habits these days, rather than some inherent aspect of the market.

    Consider a character like, say, Moon Knight. Gets a series every few years, but its usually cancelled quickly. It (can) makes sense for the next creative team and editorial to say "the last series failed (probably badly), so clearly we need to move away from what they did and try something new." So to that end, yeah its almost impossible for a villain to gain any traction. They get forgotten just like everything else about the previous series.

    With a character who's proven popular enough to sustain a book long-term, it's a bit different. Consider Ms. Marvel; a relatively new character who doesn't have decades of history but still holds down a title. She's developing a rogues galley with several (original) recurring villains. She has new ones coming in all the time, and most of them don't return, but more than a few have come back for second, even third, appearances. Thanks to solid, consistent sales and a stable creative team, she's building a mythos for herself. Including bad guys.

    Nightwing is sort of in the same boat; he's popular enough to hold down a book (mostly) long term. However, he's got two problems here. The first is his editorial, which seem perfectly fine with new creative teams dumping the past to start fresh, even when the recent past wasn't irredeemable (or even bad). This isn't good editing, but it's been DC's model for decades, especially concerning certain characters (like Wonder Woman). And the first, primary problem is that Dick's a DC character, and as long as DC worships at the alter of the Bat, Nightwing will always be at the mercy of the Bat-titles, which removes some agency and autonomy from his creators.

    So building a rogues gallery for Dick *can* be done, it just *isnt* being done. Nothing can be done about Nightwing having to play by Bat-office rules, but the editorial model is easy to change.

    So spending so much time and effort in trying to build a rogues gallery for a character that doesn't have one on the level of Batman or Spider-man is a waste of time, in my opinion.
    No one is ever going to have a rogues gallery like those guys. They've been around the better part of a century; no one is gonna catch up. But that's not what people are asking for here either, we're just acknowledging that good recurring villains make for a better book and thinking about who fits Nightwing.

    It is also important to use villains across the DC. I just don't understand limiting yourself to just a small handful of villains (most of which no one cares about) when the DCU has them in abidance.
    Also very true. Im a big fan of poaching villains. And everyone here is doing that; mentioning villains from the Batman, Titans, and Superman properties who could be used better in Nightwing, or at least borrowed on a semi-regular basis.
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  3. #18828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    Nightwing is sort of in the same boat; he's popular enough to hold down a book (mostly) long term. However, he's got two problems here. The first is his editorial, which seem perfectly fine with new creative teams dumping the past to start fresh, even when the recent past wasn't irredeemable (or even bad). This isn't good editing, but it's been DC's model for decades, especially concerning certain characters (like Wonder Woman). And the first, primary problem is that Dick's a DC character, and as long as DC worships at the alter of the Bat, Nightwing will always be at the mercy of the Bat-titles, which removes some agency and autonomy from his creators.

    So building a rogues gallery for Dick *can* be done, it just *isnt* being done. Nothing can be done about Nightwing having to play by Bat-office rules, but the editorial model is easy to change.
    A good comparison would be in New 52, Nightwing vs Grayson, subject: crossovers and events. Nightwing: Night of the Owls, Death of the Family and Forever Evil (which pretty much ended the title in its New 52 incarnation). Grayson: Robin War (1 issue). Crossovers and events can be good, but they shouldn't hijack or impact ongoing storylines going on outside the title unless it's done to benefit the title. Death of the Family ended the Halley's Circus arc and Dick moved to Chicago. As already mentioned Forever Evil saw the Nightwing title come to an end (with the key event not even in the pages of Nightwing). Meanwhile Robin War was one issue of Grayson and that issue is easily skippable. Rebirth has followed like this, where the Monster Men and Metal tie-ins were two and one issues respectively, meaning you can skip those.

  4. #18829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    Harley Queen is the new Deathstroke. Her stock in the franchise merits a placement on her own, why would she be a nemesis of Grayson? Because of unrequited sex from a movie?
    She appeared in the final issue, the third annual, of Grayson. Then again, it also featured Constantine and Green Lantern Simon Baz, not the first characters you'd expect in a Dick Grayson book.

  5. #18830
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    I think DC would be more interested in having Dick and Harley bang then fight.

  6. #18831
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    With a character who's proven popular enough to sustain a book long-term, it's a bit different. Consider Ms. Marvel; a relatively new character who doesn't have decades of history but still holds down a title. She's developing a rogues galley with several (original) recurring villains. She has new ones coming in all the time, and most of them don't return, but more than a few have come back for second, even third, appearances. Thanks to solid, consistent sales and a stable creative team, she's building a mythos for herself. Including bad guys.
    I wouldn't say Ms Marvel has a rogues gallery though, but it is also important to note that she has only ever had 1 writer on her solo book. That is key I think. Once she leaves and other writers come on they will change things around and over time she will be less capable of holding down a solo book. Being able to hold down a solo book from creator to creator I think is something probably less than two dozen characters can even do. Nightwing is one of them and everyone is comparing him to such a short list of characters at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    No one is ever going to have a rogues gallery like those guys. They've been around the better part of a century; no one is gonna catch up. But that's not what people are asking for here either, we're just acknowledging that good recurring villains make for a better book and thinking about who fits Nightwing.
    Actually him having a rogues gallery on their level is what everyone is asking, even if they aren't aware I think. If they weren't then this wouldn't be a conversation. When you list off all of DC's heroes and their accompanying "rogues gallery" Dick/Nightwing probably only falls behind Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and maybe a Green Arrow? Basically he is only behind characters that have had a solo book for decades yet people still ask why doesn't he have a rogues gallery or a good rogues gallery.

    So few heroes in DC even have a rogues gallery and even fewer have one on the level of Dick/Nightwing. The only ones that have a bigger one are those top level characters that everyone looks to as an example for what a rogues gallery should be, but most if not all of them developed their gallery when comics were in a different era. So sure Dick doesn't have a good or very interesting gallery but so do the vast majority of characters, and in Dick's case his is bigger than everyone of comparable level. The fact that Dick is in his position yet people still ask why doesn't he have a good rogues gallery makes me believe that he will never have a good one that people will be satisfied with because I don't think it is possible in this day and age to build one on the level of those characters right above Dick in modern comics.
    Last edited by Badou; 01-11-2018 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #18832
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    The sad thing is Dick has been around as long or longer than some of the characters above him and yet because he was connected at the hip to Batman for decades he never had a chance to develop his own rogues gallery like those other characters did back at that time. That right there I think is the crux of the whole problem and why fans feel he should have his own rogues gallery.
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  8. #18833
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I wouldn't say Ms Marvel has a rogues gallery though,
    Not a fully formed one, but it's being slowly built over time. Just like everyone else's rogues galleries were back in the day. And so far its working (slowly of course, but still working, and this isn't something that can be artificially done over the course of six months)

    but it is also important to note that she has only ever had 1 writer on her solo book. That is key I think. Once she leaves and other writers come on they will change things around and over time she will be less capable of holding down a solo book.
    Writer consistency is definitely a big part of it, yeah. Whether the character (and her villains) can maintain after a creative shift......time will tell on that one. Given that writers are allowed to dump everything and start fresh, even when there's no quality/sales reason to do so, is troubling and doesnt fill me with hope. But thats about editorial methods, its not about the market itself.

    Being able to hold down a solo book from creator to creator I think is something probably less than two dozen characters can even do. Nightwing is one of them and everyone is comparing him to such a short list of characters at this point.
    Well, Dick's been around longer than almost anyone. I think he's actually one of only five *truly* iconic comic book characters (everyone knows "Batman and Robin" and Dick usually fills that role in larger media). So the guy deserves to be compared to the other big names, even if he's no longer as recognizable as he used to be (name change and all that) There's a handicap there, and he's not *quite* on the same level, but he's close enough for jazz.

    So few heroes in DC even have a rogues gallery and even fewer have one on the level of Dick/Nightwing.
    Which is no reason to stop building Dick's villains. Nor is it a reason to stop putting in effort with other characters for that matter. A good villain is an important part of heroic fiction. What I see here is a problem to be solved, not a constant to be adhered to.

    The reason no one has a decent rogues gallery is because writers aren't encouraged to build on what came before. That's the problem, its not some sort of market issue where fans don't want good recurring villains. Readers *want* good villains, which is why these discussions keep coming up. Its the writers and editors who dont want to put in the time and effort. That's easy to change, you just change the editors.

    The fact that Dick is in his position yet people still ask why doesn't he have a good rogues gallery makes me believe that he will never have a good one that people will be satisfied with because I don't think it is possible in this day and age to build one on the level of those characters right above Dick in modern comics.
    Well, we still complain about the major rogues galleries too. We complain about how Lex Luthor and the Joker are used, or that they're over-used, or that foes like Parasite or Clayface aren't developed enough, or that the current version isn't as good as a previous one, etc. Fans complain about everything, and even if Nightwing had a great rogues gallery, we'd still complain about it.

    And I think its entirely possible to build a good rogues gallery in today's market. Take a look at Invincible; it built an amazing rogues gallery despite killing characters off all the time (and forever). Amstrom Levy, the Sequids, the Mauler Twins, Conquest, Dinosaurus....there are a bunch of great recurring villains in that book. Granted, most of them are dead now, but the book is ending so everyone is dying anyway. As with Ms. Marvel, the book benefits from a single writer, but that's a small hurdle to leap over.

    DC could do the same, they'd just have to change the editorial model and stop letting writers do whatever they want at the expense of developing established assets. Seriously, its that simple. Will it happen? Probably not under the current administrators, no. But just because those people aren't making it happen doesnt mean it *cant* happen.
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  9. #18834
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I think DC would be more interested in having Dick and Harley bang then fight.
    It's not like he could arrest her. It seems like all the Sirens are now too popular for the Batfamily to bust them anymore .

  10. #18835
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    The sad thing is Dick has been around as long or longer than some of the characters above him and yet because he was connected at the hip to Batman for decades he never had a chance to develop his own rogues gallery like those other characters did back at that time. That right there I think is the crux of the whole problem and why fans feel he should have his own rogues gallery.
    Cyborg is really in his spot on the Justice league

    But can we really Blame it on Batman Harley Broke free, although she is trapped on the SS squad for life

  11. #18836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It's not like he could arrest her. It seems like all the Sirens are now too popular for the Batfamily to bust them anymore .
    Poison Ivy fans dont want her to kill anymore, she not dating batman and unlike harly she entered a world of crime on her own
    she should be ttreated like the rest of the rouges but being both a female and love interest of harley

  12. #18837
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Cyborg is really in his spot on the Justice league
    It actually irritates me that Dick isn't a member of the JL. hE has been around just as long if not longer than some of it's members with only Bats and Supes being older, and he has the necessary experience as well. Once his time with the Titans was finished and before all the nonsense Titan reunion books started happening would have been a good time to slot him into the JL under the Nightwing mantle. I know people say that having two Bats on the team would have been stupid but Dick is a totally different person from Bruce and I think it could have worked under the right writer.

    But can we really Blame it on Batman Harley Broke free, although she is trapped on the SS squad for life
    Harley was not connected at the hip to Batman like Dick was though so I don't think its quite the same thing at all. Dick was Robin for decades before they even started moving him out of the Batman book and out on his own. I believe that if they had allowed him to be aged up sooner he could have been out on his own decades sooner and would thus have an established rogues gallery at this point like Batman and the rest have. If that had happened then all current writers would have been doing was adding to it and it wouldn't matter half as much if a new writer came in and decided to wipe the slate clean from the previous writer because there would have been the basic rogues gallery to fall back on.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 01-11-2018 at 01:37 PM.
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  13. #18838
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    Batman and Nightwing in a League together would just remind me of Batman and Robin in the League together .

  14. #18839
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Batman and Nightwing in a League together would just remind me of Batman and Robin in the League together .
    Doesn't change the fact that his character has existed for longer than almost everyone else on the League and he does have the necessary experience to be a member. It would be one thing he if he said at some point that he didn't want to join the JL as he did in the Young Justice cartoon but I'm not sure that he's ever said that.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 01-11-2018 at 01:55 PM.
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  15. #18840
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that his character has existed for longer than almost everyone else on the League and he does have the necessary experience to be a member. It would be one thing he if he said at some point that he didn't want to join the JL as he did in the Young Justice cartoon but I'm not sure that he's ever said that.
    I just don't really feel the need to see Dick in the Justice League.

    That's not to say he wouldn't be fun on the team, though I think he'd work better without Bruce in it as well.

    Of course, it probably helps that there are older members of the team who I would rather see back then I do seeing Dick on the team.

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