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  1. #76
    Incredible Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    But we've barely got to the issues that are supposed to be dealing with it. And why would the only impact worth dealing with be that on a wide part of the DCU? Wouldn't the impact on Dick himself, yes and those closest to him, be worth examining?
    You would think so, but in Batman Eternal he has already been unmasked and pronounced dead and nobody is losing any sleep because of it. There's no impact whatsoever.

    I would believe that Dick will be able to build totally new connections outside of Gotham and the Bat Family when I see it, and even then I will be waiting for the time when Johns or Snyder decide burn it to the ground again. But I don't think I will ever believe that any part of the WB gives a crap about their readers' opinions.
    Last edited by Rakiduam; 05-02-2014 at 11:06 PM.

  2. #77
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    You would think so, but in Batman Eternal he has already been unmasked and pronounced dead and nobody is losing any sleep because of it. There's no impact whatsoever.
    You are right of course. But Bruce is not shown losing sleep over Damian, either, who has only been dead a few months. Nor is he shown worrying about the effect on Tim of being hurled through time, nor is he shown worrying about how Jason is faring. For that matter, we really haven't seen Bruce, as such, at all. It's all been Batman. Nor have we really had personal time with any of the characters, other than somewhat with Gordon and Stephanie. If we are to believe this is a real world at all (and believe me, I know there are a LOT of things that make it hard to believe in the reality of Gotham, even by a comic book standard of reality) then all of these things would have to be factors in the lives of the characters. The fact is, even given the best will in the world, which the authors may in fact have, the great enemy of all storytelling, Dark Lord Word Count, will not allow them to waste any space on thoughts or conversations not related to the subject at hand.

    We are still not to the ridiculous levels sometimes seen in the old DCU (ah, the good old days, boy they were rotten!). Remember when the World's Greatest Detective evidently didn't know his own son's apartment building had been firebombed, despite Alfred attending the funerals of the victims?

  3. #78
    Incredible Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    You are right of course. But Bruce is not shown losing sleep over Damian, either, who has only been dead a few months. Nor is he shown worrying about the effect on Tim of being hurled through time, nor is he shown worrying about how Jason is faring. For that matter, we really haven't seen Bruce, as such, at all. It's all been Batman. Nor have we really had personal time with any of the characters, other than somewhat with Gordon and Stephanie. If we are to believe this is a real world at all (and believe me, I know there are a LOT of things that make it hard to believe in the reality of Gotham, even by a comic book standard of reality) then all of these things would have to be factors in the lives of the characters. The fact is, even given the best will in the world, which the authors may in fact have, the great enemy of all storytelling, Dark Lord Word Count, will not allow them to waste any space on thoughts or conversations not related to the subject at hand.

    We are still not to the ridiculous levels sometimes seen in the old DCU (ah, the good old days, boy they were rotten!). Remember when the World's Greatest Detective evidently didn't know his own son's apartment building had been firebombed, despite Alfred attending the funerals of the victims?
    Forget about Bruce (and unless I have imagined all those requiem issues and the 5 states of mourning in Batman and Robin, there was a reaction for Damian's death) he shouldn't care. The problem is nobody else does either. A whole city incapable of add two plus two, no one single person cares.

    What was the point of unmask a hero when nobody cares?

  4. #79
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Forget about Bruce (and unless I have imagined all those requiem issues and the 5 states of mourning in Batman and Robin, there was a reaction for Damian's death) he shouldn't care. The problem is nobody else does either. A whole city incapable of add two plus two, no one single person cares.

    What was the point of unmask a hero when nobody cares?
    Gotham is certainly full of dullards, you are right. So is Metropolis. But, Barbara certainly cares. There was, in fact, an entire heavy handed issue of Batgirl FILLED with Barbara caring at poetic length. What other chances have the writers had to show the effects of Dick's absence? The end of Arkham War, I suppose. But Tomasi isn't one you can rely on to carry any kind of plot thread he didn't originate himself (see how he tried to butcher the Bruce/Jason relationship). Batman is still in the past, and both Tec and Batman and... are of uncertain timeframe (and the latter is Tomasi again). RHATO hasn't caught up, either. The big issue for this is supposedly the last Nightwing, and perhaps the last Forever Evil, both coming later this month. That leaves Eternal. With everything they've had to do and establish over the last few issues, I'm not sure when they would have had time for someone to stop and reflect on how much they miss Dick Grayson. That would be especially hard since they are trying to construct Eternal to serve as an entry point to the Bat Books. That means they would have to explain who Dick is before talking about how much anybody misses him, and they surely haven't had time to do that.
    Last edited by Dzetoun; 05-02-2014 at 11:56 PM.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    But how is giving him his own book with a very talented creative team "taking him off the table?" Especially when said book will, as I understand it, still be edited by the Batman Office? That hardly constitutes not dealing with the character.
    Well the first problem is that the character is still in the Batman office, I think he would work better outside it, but what I meant when they are taking the character "off the table" is that they are removing him from the main Batman stories and interaction with Batman characters because they don't know how to include him at the moment with his new "status quo". With Nightwing being "dead" and everyone knowing who Dick Grayson is. It's easier to not deal with it for now. He's already been removed from the general DC universe before this new change, so that was irrelevant, but if you read Higgins' Nightwing run his relationship and standing with the other Batman characters is very miniscule. The character was very much isolated and on his own in Nightwing (which is what my big fear with Grayson is), and Higgins did very little with any of the other characters aside from really Babs, but it was other writers like Synder and Tomasi who had to touch on his relationship with characters like Bruce and Damian and those few appearances the character had in those other books were better than nearly anything we've had in Nightwing in my opinion. I really feel the character is at his best when he is interacting with those more established characters/heroes and having his personality bounce off theirs because he is so unique in the type of personality he has as a hero. He's so positive and personable and it's a shame we haven't had more of it in the reboot. It's crazy to me how him and Jason have switched roles in the New 52 with him having friends and leading former Titans going on big adventures and Dick as the isolated loaner who doesn't know really know anyone. So since it seems the character won't be appearing outside the Grayson book for a while I am disappointed.

    I just don't get why the character couldn't have his solo Grayson book be about Dick being on his own uninvolved in the Batman events/crossovers, but the character can still be involved in other titles to try and help piece together even a little of what he was before the reboot. Though I get the in-story reason why he isn't involved is because his identity was exposed, but that is why I don't think it is worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    But we've barely got to the issues that are supposed to be dealing with it. And why would the only impact worth dealing with be that on a wide part of the DCU? Wouldn't the impact on Dick himself, yes and those closest to him, be worth examining?
    Dick has no personal life or real connections to people in the DCU. So the impact of how his life has suddenly changed because of his identity being exposed is rendered mute. Nothing changes because his personal life didn't mean anything already. Given that Batman in Detective, Batman and Robin, and Eternal all seem fine and doing what they would be doing regardless if Dick's identity was exposed or not makes the gimmick feels pointless. If it only impacts Dick then I don't get the point of it. Maybe Babs is impacted some, since she is really the only character Dick is close with, but I doubt we will see much, if any, changes in her own book. It's all going to come from the Nightwing/Grayson book I feel and pretty much be ignored everywhere else. Like Forever Evil's impact on Gotham.

    It's like that current Wolverine arc where he was "going rogue" for some reason but because all the other books Wolverine was appearing in didn't really reflect his new status quo in his solo book the impact of the new direction felt unimportant and it was difficult to buy in. You saw how crazy and emotional Bruce and everyone got when Damian died across the whole Batman line (B&R is still dealing with it) and you think that Dick having his identity being exposed and "dying" would be huge, it's the most horrifying thing that could happen to a masked hero arguably, but I don't get that feeling huge feeling here. It feels basically like when Constantine got kicked out of the JLD team recently rather than this major life defining crisis. With Eternal, Future's End, the 5 Year Later September event, war with Earth 2 and it's weekly coming I feel the whole DCU just wants to move on from Forever Evil and it's fallout (such as Nightwing's identity being exposed/dying) but the character isn't able to because he has to carry around that big weight that event stuck him with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    Well, what if someone at DC said something like this: "It's funny, but for about three years now the internet (we have it in New York, you know, and we even use it from time to time) has been practically bleeding with complaints about how Dick Grayson can't get out of Batman's shadow, how he is constantly pulled into every crossover that Scott Snyder leads, how he doesn't ever get a good creative team, how he never gets interesting storylines, how we never have the courage to do anything interesting or original with him, how he's lost all his connections in the reboot and needs to make new ones, how the darkness of Gotham in the New 52 isn't a fit for Dick's personality, and on and on and on. Well, now he has an up-and-coming hot-commodity creative team. We are trying something new and different. For the first time since the days of the Titans, he will be away from Batman with a definitive chance to step out of his shadow. He will be able to build totally new connections outside of Gotham and the Bat Family, the very kind of connections that fans say they miss so badly. And we have even taken firm steps to isolate him from those crossovers that everyone says they hate so very, very much. Maybe, just maybe, it might pay off to give us ten minutes to try and please you? After all, we aren't going anywhere (well, we are, but you know how to find us in California as well as New York). If you don't like what we do, the internet lines to California will carry the displeasure just as efficiently as the ones to New York ever did." That wouldn't be an unreasonable request, would it, even from a tiny little division of Warner Bros?
    No need to be so condescending here. I was only giving my honest feelings and I was trying to explain them in a clear and concise way rather than just ranting.

    Anyway, the reason people hated the crossovers was because with each one it felt like the character got a brand new direction and scraped what we had before. That was sort of the case even before the New 52 with Nightwing. Every time a new writer came on they wanted to do their own thing and start over so we are now after 20 years still asking why Dick doesn't have a rogues gallery or a supporting cast. It's because no one builds on what came before. All his past time as Robin, as Nightwing, and as Batman is always thrown away for something new and ignored. So it became frustrating and it makes me cynical about any new direction. Those crossover issues in the New 52 on their own were arguably some of the best issues from the series, but I think you are reaching for this new direction being as big of a change since his days with the Titans. It's not. It's probably more like when he made a new Outsiders team with Roy, which he didn't do that well in. Here he is still in the Batman line being told what to do by Batman. Batman is the one that told him to be a spy and join Spryal, telling him to pretend to be dead, to not tell anyone he is alive and his life is basically even more dictated by what Batman does than when he was Nightwing. The only already established characters he will probably be interacting with are Batman INC members who are more connected to Bruce anyway. He is doing all this on Batman's command and dealing with some problem Batman can't be bothered to deal with at the moment, and I don't really see that as getting out from Batman's shadow.

    I hope I am wrong and Grayson will be a run on par with Black Mirror and the character finally finds a place for himself in the New 52 (though I'd be sad he isn't a superhero anymore), and in the series he gets to interact with a lot of character all throughout the DCU and build new relationships that make me mostly forget about all the important ones that he lost, or were given to other characters, but I just don't have the confidence to buy in. When we first learned about Forever Evil and that Nightwing was going to be involved in it in a big way I was very excited. I thought "Finally! The character is going to be included in the DCU again and play a big role in DC's first big event since the reboot". I thought it was going to be a great showing for the character, and I even supported him getting his identity exposed back then because I thought it would force him to be more open and interact with characters he hasn't with all reboot, but after reading up to issue #6 of FE and seeing how much of a pathetic damsel in distress/punching bag he has been I lost all of my confidence. Until they build the character up outside the Batman line, like they've done with Harley, I don't know if he will ever be able to escape Batman's shadow.

    Typed a lot more than I thought I would, but those are my full thoughts. tl;dr
    Last edited by Badou; 05-03-2014 at 02:33 AM.

  6. #81
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    DC didn't commission that piece. It was a personal commission by some dude, and thats what he wanted.
    Fair enough.


    I actually like the redesigned disco suit. I thought it worked well as an update.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That's the thing, he was never Batman-lite, even when he was Batman. He was entirely distinguishable from Bruce from an emotional, motivational, and attitude perspective.
    I'm not the one you need to convince. It's the DC top brass that don't realize it. I just don't think the pinacle for Dick Grayson should be Batman nor is that something he should strive for or want. He can do better.

  8. #83
    Rookie Member Batman Fan's Avatar
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    I thought the Nightwing solo series that started in the late 90's was awesome. His move to Bludhaven etc some great stories.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    Well, what if someone at DC said something like this: "It's funny, but for about three years now the internet (we have it in New York, you know, and we even use it from time to time) has been practically bleeding with complaints about how Dick Grayson can't get out of Batman's shadow, how he is constantly pulled into every crossover that Scott Snyder leads, how he doesn't ever get a good creative team, how he never gets interesting storylines, how we never have the courage to do anything interesting or original with him, how he's lost all his connections in the reboot and needs to make new ones, how the darkness of Gotham in the New 52 isn't a fit for Dick's personality, and on and on and on. Well, now he has an up-and-coming hot-commodity creative team. We are trying something new and different. For the first time since the days of the Titans, he will be away from Batman with a definitive chance to step out of his shadow. He will be able to build totally new connections outside of Gotham and the Bat Family, the very kind of connections that fans say they miss so badly. And we have even taken firm steps to isolate him from those crossovers that everyone says they hate so very, very much. Maybe, just maybe, it might pay off to give us ten minutes to try and please you? After all, we aren't going anywhere (well, we are, but you know how to find us in California as well as New York). If you don't like what we do, the internet lines to California will carry the displeasure just as efficiently as the ones to New York ever did." That wouldn't be an unreasonable request, would it, even from a tiny little division of Warner Bros?
    This post made me see the positive in this new direction for Dick Grayson, thank you!

  10. #85
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    But how is giving him his own book with a very talented creative team "taking him off the table?" Especially when said book will, as I understand it, still be edited by the Batman Office? That hardly constitutes not dealing with the character.



    But we've barely got to the issues that are supposed to be dealing with it. And why would the only impact worth dealing with be that on a wide part of the DCU? Wouldn't the impact on Dick himself, yes and those closest to him, be worth examining?



    Well, what if someone at DC said something like this: "It's funny, but for about three years now the internet (we have it in New York, you know, and we even use it from time to time) has been practically bleeding with complaints about how Dick Grayson can't get out of Batman's shadow, how he is constantly pulled into every crossover that Scott Snyder leads, how he doesn't ever get a good creative team, how he never gets interesting storylines, how we never have the courage to do anything interesting or original with him, how he's lost all his connections in the reboot and needs to make new ones, how the darkness of Gotham in the New 52 isn't a fit for Dick's personality, and on and on and on. Well, now he has an up-and-coming hot-commodity creative team. We are trying something new and different. For the first time since the days of the Titans, he will be away from Batman with a definitive chance to step out of his shadow. He will be able to build totally new connections outside of Gotham and the Bat Family, the very kind of connections that fans say they miss so badly. And we have even taken firm steps to isolate him from those crossovers that everyone says they hate so very, very much. Maybe, just maybe, it might pay off to give us ten minutes to try and please you? After all, we aren't going anywhere (well, we are, but you know how to find us in California as well as New York). If you don't like what we do, the internet lines to California will carry the displeasure just as efficiently as the ones to New York ever did." That wouldn't be an unreasonable request, would it, even from a tiny little division of Warner Bros?

    But my issue with this is they've taken him off the DC table as well. And to be fair it's a situation they created themselves when they butchered his background and replaced it with nothing of significance. Especially considering how well liked Wolfman Perez version of The New Teen Titans are. They've even had a cartoon show that's been running on and off for 10 years. So they take that out and make no use of it. Reducing their own chances at selling more comics by giving kids or adults who watch the show another venue to see those characters.

    They say they don't want to make him Batman lite but then include him in every Batman event and make him less than useless. The Joker kills pretty much his entire supporting cast, and he doesn't even get the satisfaction of putting him away. They say now they aren't goin got include him in any events.....they couldve accomplished the same thing without making him a spy.

    Finally....he's a spy. I love Dick Grayson but I DON'T want this series to succeed purely based on the fact that I don't want Dick to be a spy. DICK IS A SUPER HERO. THE SUPER HERO (IMO especially given his history). I don't want him to be a spy. I don't even really want him being a spy to be part of his history. I have a Dick Grayson and the New Titans script that I would love to put in someone at DC's hands that address everyone's complaint with Dick and the Titan's in the new 52 and still manages to respect the fans, and continuity. It even goes so far as to take Dick in a new direction (gasp) that still has him being a hero.

  11. #86
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Well the first problem is that the character is still in the Batman office, I think he would work better outside it, but what I meant when they are taking the character "off the table" is that they are removing him from the main Batman stories and interaction with Batman characters because they don't know how to include him at the moment with his new "status quo".
    That's fair enough. Certainly I can see the argument that they have had a very hard time defining an appropriate role for him within the Bat Family and the Bat World, and that they might feel better removing him from the immediate Bat World for the time being simply because they don't know what to do with him. But, speaking practically, where else can he really go outside of the Batman Office? The Young Justice line is in a shambles. He has no connections to the Superman line. Certainly he doesn't fit into the Dark line. That leaves the Justice League Office, and not only does he not have a foundation in this continuity for that, but the Justice League Office is the kingdom of Geoff Johns, whom many people object to because of what he has done or not done in Forever Evil. It would seem that it's the Batman Office or bust at this particular moment.

    I really feel the character is at his best when he is interacting with those more established characters/heroes and having his personality bounce off theirs because he is so unique in the type of personality he has as a hero. He's so positive and personable and it's a shame we haven't had more of it in the reboot. It's crazy to me how him and Jason have switched roles in the New 52 with him having friends and leading former Titans going on big adventures and Dick as the isolated loaner who doesn't know really know anyone. So since it seems the character won't be appearing outside the Grayson book for a while I am disappointed.
    I absolutely agree with you about Dick's personality and how he works best bouncing off others. The reboot has been very damaging there, you are certainly right. It is an irony about Jason doing so well in the reboot and Tim and Dick doing so poorly. But that is because Jason was so badly in need of a rescue operation after having been mishandled so badly in the old continuity. It's kind of like someone who gets his old office remodeled and ends up with nicer digs than the people next door in a much newer building. But both Tim and Dick are getting a great deal of attention now. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't, but at least people are aware of the issues.

    Dick has no personal life or real connections to people in the DCU. So the impact of how his life has suddenly changed because of his identity being exposed is rendered mute. Nothing changes because his personal life didn't mean anything already. Given that Batman in Detective, Batman and Robin, and Eternal all seem fine and doing what they would be doing regardless if Dick's identity was exposed or not makes the gimmick feels pointless. If it only impacts Dick then I don't get the point of it. Maybe Babs is impacted some, since she is really the only character Dick is close with, but I doubt we will see much, if any, changes in her own book. It's all going to come from the Nightwing/Grayson book I feel and pretty much be ignored everywhere else. Like Forever Evil's impact on Gotham.

    It's like that current Wolverine arc where he was "going rogue" for some reason but because all the other books Wolverine was appearing in didn't really reflect his new status quo in his solo book the impact of the new direction felt unimportant and it was difficult to buy in. You saw how crazy and emotional Bruce and everyone got when Damian died across the whole Batman line (B&R is still dealing with it) and you think that Dick having his identity being exposed and "dying" would be huge, it's the most horrifying thing that could happen to a masked hero arguably, but I don't get that feeling huge feeling here. It feels basically like when Constantine got kicked out of the JLD team recently rather than this major life defining crisis. With Eternal, Future's End, the 5 Year Later September event, war with Earth 2 and it's weekly coming I feel the whole DCU just wants to move on from Forever Evil and it's fallout (such as Nightwing's identity being exposed/dying) but the character isn't able to because he has to carry around that big weight that event stuck him with.
    One hundred percent agree about a foundational problem with modern comics in general and the DCU in particular. As I said in another thread, Arkham War feels pretty worthless because it seems to have had pretty much zero impact on anything. Similarly, the impact of Forever Evil is not what it logically should be, even if various lines are impacted and even if other lines are making some nods to it.

    With regard to how the Bat Family deals with Dick's situation, though, there is a narrative problem. Dick is supposedly dead. One would think that would impact them the way Damian's death did. Well, that would mean doing a Requiem event for a character who is still alive, which is a problem when readers know he's still alive. But there is an even bigger issue. For something, anything, to have major impact in the world of Bats, it has to have major impact on Bruce. That's just the way it is; he is just that dominant a figure. So are we going to have to show him being impacted by a death that doesn't exist in order for said death to have a major impact on the Bat World? I know in theory we should be able to see the impact on Barbara, Alfred, etc., and see Bruce playing off that, but in actuality that isn't the way things work in the Bat Family, not for very long. Beyond the plot logistics of that, there is the problem of what that means for Dick's character -- which is to say, nothing much. Requiem was not about Damian, it was about Bruce. If somehow we were to see a major plot arc concerning the impact of Dick's "death," it would inevitably mean that Dick once again becomes a mere device in a story about Bruce. Which does Dick's character no good at all, and in fact arguably harms him.


    Anyway, the reason people hated the crossovers was because with each one it felt like the character got a brand new direction and scraped what we had before. That was sort of the case even before the New 52 with Nightwing. Every time a new writer came on they wanted to do their own thing and start over so we are now after 20 years still asking why Dick doesn't have a rogues gallery or a supporting cast. It's because no one builds on what came before. All his past time as Robin, as Nightwing, and as Batman is always thrown away for something new and ignored. So it became frustrating and it makes me cynical about any new direction.
    Yeah, that was an enormous problem. But as long as Dick in Bruce's orbit at all, it's going to persist. I think it is just the nature of the character, in a way. It just isn't in the personality of Dick Grayson, in any era or continuity, NOT to be intimately involved in whatever Bruce is up to unless Dick is distanced from Bruce physically and/or emotionally. The nature of their relationship is and always has been such that, barring absence or some kind of pretty severe emotional trauma, Dick is just going to rally to Batman's side. The other members of the family, maybe not so much. Barbara can maintain her distance. Lord knows Jason has no problem staying clear of Bruce's activities. In the New 52, even Tim seems rather cool toward Bruce and has shown signs of maintaining separation. But not Dick, he is and always has been the True Believer.

    The practical way to avoid that would be not to have crossovers. But telling Snyder not to have crossovers is like telling the sun not to rise in the morning. So perhaps distance is the only way to address the issue.
    Last edited by Dzetoun; 05-03-2014 at 07:29 AM.

  12. #87
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    Reply C'ntd:

    When we first learned about Forever Evil and that Nightwing was going to be involved in it in a big way I was very excited. I thought "Finally! The character is going to be included in the DCU again and play a big role in DC's first big event since the reboot". I thought it was going to be a great showing for the character, and I even supported him getting his identity exposed back then because I thought it would force him to be more open and interact with characters he hasn't with all reboot, but after reading up to issue #6 of FE and seeing how much of a pathetic damsel in distress/punching bag he has been I lost all of my confidence. Until they build the character up outside the Batman line, like they've done with Harley, I don't know if he will ever be able to escape Batman's shadow.
    I agree with you absolutely there. I have rarely been so disappointed in a writer as I have been in Johns in this regard. I have wondered if he originally meant Nightwing to fill the role that Batman is now playing, which would fit his rhetoric better, but was forced to bring Batman in to boost sales and thus drastically rewrite Dick's role. Others just see it as signs of Johns' weaknesses as a writer.

    The thing is, he's done what he's done. I wish he hadn't, but this is the situation we are faced with. Given that, this new direction is probably the best we can realistically hope for. Yeah, I hear you that it might be better if Dick were given a new team and moved entirely out of the Batman line. But given the structure of DC at the moment, and the relative strength of the various offices, that was probably never a realistic possibility. Meanwhile, when you look at what might have happened, what directions the character might have taken, what creative teams might have been assigned to the book, the outcome we are presented with here is amazingly bright. We do have a young, well-regarded team. We do have a new direction free of interference from crossovers. We do have the opportunity to build new relationships and a new world, and to explore themes and story components not really dealt with since Morrison touched on them in Batman Incorporated. And Tim Seeley seems to understand that he has been given a great opportunity that is fraught with great dangers. Maybe he won't be the next Wolfman or Morrison or even Snyder. But maybe he will. I am sure he hopes he will and will try to be. After all, he is young and up-and-coming, and Snyder won't sit in the Batman chair forever. I am sure we aren't the only ones who appreciate how Snyder leveraged writing Dick well into a major career move.

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    Rookie Member Just Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0NIN View Post
    They say they don't want to make him Batman lite but then include him in every Batman event and make him less than useless. The Joker kills pretty much his entire supporting cast, and he doesn't even get the satisfaction of putting him away. They say now they aren't goin got include him in any events.....they couldve accomplished the same thing without making him a spy.

    Finally....he's a spy. I love Dick Grayson but I DON'T want this series to succeed purely based on the fact that I don't want Dick to be a spy. DICK IS A SUPER HERO. THE SUPER HERO (IMO especially given his history). I don't want him to be a spy. I don't even really want him being a spy to be part of his history. I have a Dick Grayson and the New Titans script that I would love to put in someone at DC's hands that address everyone's complaint with Dick and the Titan's in the new 52 and still manages to respect the fans, and continuity. It even goes so far as to take Dick in a new direction (gasp) that still has him being a hero.
    Thats the first part I can't agree more with. It was such a simple solution as well.

    The bold? THATS what I'm most upset about. NO SUPERHERO actually enjoyed being a super hero more than Dick Grayson. The other problem is that Dick LITERALLY has no agency here whatsoever. The decision to fake his death (that only works if someone TELLS everyone else he died. VERY few characters should actually know he died as is) is Batman's. Becoming a spy? Batman. With Spyal? Batman.

    I'm also still not a fan of the unmasking. Not only because of it strictly being done as an example of "the worf effect featuring Nightwing" but because it literally impacts no one. Dick is such a disconnected individual that it really doesn't have any impact on anyone else. I know Johns still believed that he possessed the same level of character he had in the pre-Flashpoint world...but he doesn't remotely (not even in Johns' own Justice League book is this supported). Not to mention, the immediateness of him "faking his death" immediately cancels out the impact of it anyways.

    Its literally just poor decision after poor decision with Dick in the New 52. They wanted Dick off of the table. The problem being they had no idea where to put him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I hope I am wrong and Grayson will be a run on par with Black Mirror and the character finally finds a place for himself in the New 52 (though I'd be sad he isn't a superhero anymore), and in the series he gets to interact with a lot of character all throughout the DCU and build new relationships that make me mostly forget about all the important ones that he lost, or were given to other characters, but I just don't have the confidence to buy in. When we first learned about Forever Evil and that Nightwing was going to be involved in it in a big way I was very excited. I thought "Finally! The character is going to be included in the DCU again and play a big role in DC's first big event since the reboot". I thought it was going to be a great showing for the character, and I even supported him getting his identity exposed back then because I thought it would force him to be more open and interact with characters he hasn't with all reboot, but after reading up to issue #6 of FE and seeing how much of a pathetic damsel in distress/punching bag he has been I lost all of my confidence. Until they build the character up outside the Batman line, like they've done with Harley, I don't know if he will ever be able to escape Batman's shadow.
    I thought the same initially until issue 1 came out and the following (and prior) interviews with Johns. When it was clear his interviews didn't remotely match what was on panel...or even off panel, thats when I knew.
    Last edited by Just Is; 05-03-2014 at 01:04 PM.
    Pulling: Spider-Gwen, All New Captain America, Ms Marvel, Secret Six, Daredevil, Uncanny X-Men, Grayson, Batman, Miles Morales: Ultimate Spider-Man, A-Force, Cyborg, Starfire

  14. #89
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    So I'm forced to ask: If the reason for this is because Dick is a redundant character (he's Super-sized Robin, and Batman-Lite), what sense does it make to bring Batman-Lite 2.0 (Terry McGinnis) into the New 52 to be the lead in their largest story?

    The whole thing just feels like a contrivance. Either editorial really wanted to kill him and was told by accounting that it didn't make financial sense so they tried to write a story that let them have it both ways, or this was a long term plan to try and cash in on the Winter Soldier movie. Either reason is disappointing, but I still have high hopes that I will enjoy the new title and direction. I'm willing to look past the Dick Grayson history if it means a good spy story.

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    My question is can this book sell with just Graysons name alone for the title? I mean has there really ever been a comic titled after the main character of the book that sold well? Can a book called Grayson really sell more or even the same then one called Nightwing.

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